Hello! New to posting on the forums, lurker for a while though....

My question is: What if you work out in the morning, eat your alloted calories/meals all day, and then go for a 1.5-2.5 mile run at about 7pm. You are done eating for the day - but should you eat a little something extra after the workout, or is it ok to just call it a night? (I should add that the morning will come with a workout before breakfast as usual.)

Is it just better metobolically to eat at least a little something afterwards, and thus one should save a little to have then even though it's so late? Or is it ok to just go on with life? - on a regular basis, not a one time thing.

Thanks!

I think it depends on what your goals are and how you feel after you run. If you trying to burn fat, and don't run every evening, it's ok not to refuel. If you are running lots of miles during the week, and don't have any extra fat to burn, then you probably could and should refuel. I don't like to eat later in the evening, so I would probably eat an energy bar or something before I ran rather than after.
Hope this helps a little:)

Judy

I would have to disagree. I don't think that it's a good idea to not refuel. What you choose to refuel with will be of utmost importance though. Many people are under the belief that when they don't eat, their bodies will go to their fat stores for energy. Thus, they workout in the morning on an empty stomach and/or also fail to eat after a workout. Unfortunately, that's not how things work. At least not unless you fall into the "obese" catagory. Fat stores are what your body goes after last. Muscle breakdown is first, unless extremely overweight.

So there are two options, if you are extremely overweight, workout in the morning on an empty stomach and don't stress over eating after the occasional nighttime activity.
But if you are average, or not as thin as you'd like, you can't afford to lose any muscle mass. Your muscle is what will help you to lose that fat. Here's an exerpt that helps to explain -

Many people that want to shed body fat will perform their exercise first thing in the morning without some form of breakfast. They do this with the misguided belief they are tapping into fat stores and forcing their body to burn fat for fuel. This information originated many years ago from outdated research performed on obese subjects. However, effective fat loss for people that are not fat is a much trickier objective. I won’t go into the numerous physiological aspects of why it is a terrible decision for healthy people to avoid nutritional support before exercise in the morning. I will tell you that you cannot dictate the type of fuel you want your body to utilize during exercise— human physiology is far too intricately balanced.

Exercising in the fasted state (in morning, on an empty stomach) induces a tremendous amount of muscle breakdown, (along with a small amount of fat loss). This is a one-way ticket to a slower metabolism and a body that quickly learns to hoard fat, not burn it. After 7 or 8 hours of sleep your metabolism has slowed down. Breakfast kick-starts your metabolic rate and creates an instant anabolic environment within the body. To lose body fat from exercise, the correct nutritional support that preserves lean body mass must be present.

Just one monkey's opinion.

Could you define 'not fat'....


effective fat loss for people that are not fat is a much trickier objective.

Exercising in the fasted state (in morning, on an empty stomach) induces a tremendous amount of muscle breakdown, (along with a small amount of fat loss). This is a one-way ticket to a slower metabolism and a body that quickly learns to hoard fat, not burn it. After 7 or 8 hours of sleep your metabolism has slowed down. Breakfast kick-starts your metabolic rate and creates an instant anabolic environment within the body. To lose body fat from exercise, the correct nutritional support that preserves lean body mass must be present.

Just one monkey's opinion.

OK, all that sounds good. Except that what if I have no option BUT to work out on an empty stomach, or workout with food in it immediately. Would this fall into the same catagory of something like before a run taking an energy gel? Could I kick it off with something small (peice of toast?) or should it just be a normal meal (about 200 cals), and not a lot of lead time? My exercise time is rather unmoveable (I work out about 5AM before the family is up, so my husband will be able to keep watch if the kids wake up) - so doing breakfast and then waiting a bit isn't an option.

Thanks Again!

OK, all that sounds good. Except that what if I have no option BUT to work out on an empty stomach, or workout with food in it immediately. Would this fall into the same catagory of something like before a run taking an energy gel? Could I kick it off with something small (peice of toast?) or should it just be a normal meal (about 200 cals), and not a lot of lead time? My exercise time is rather unmoveable (I work out about 5AM before the family is up, so my husband will be able to keep watch if the kids wake up) - so doing breakfast and then waiting a bit isn't an option.

Thanks Again!

I've just started having a protien shake (just protien powder & water) with a tablespoon of L-carnatine before I head to the gym for cardio in the morning... this was something my trainer recommended I do... it's easy and quick (I make it the night before)

Many people are under the belief that when they don't eat, their bodies will go to their fat stores for energy. Thus, they workout in the morning on an empty stomach and/or also fail to eat after a workout. Unfortunately, that's not how things work.
I think the biggest point you missed here is the type of exercise. Many here, including myself, think that morning fasted cardio that stays in the moderate aerobic zone (65-75% mhr) is ok. However, I don't think you'll find anyone here that advocates fasted running, HIIT or any other strenuous activity where your heart rate goes over 75%.

So does your statement apply for any and all exercise or just strenuous exercise?

I'm sorry about that. "Not fat" would be equal to "Not obese". Obesity is described as a man having a bodyfat percentage of 25% or higher. For a woman, it would be a bodyfat percentage of 32% or higher. So, if you are "not obese" then the method of starving your body before or after a workout will end up working against you.

If you want to lose fat and MAINTAIN lean muscle mass, you need food. I did not miss naming the type of exercise. I meant all exercise. It's the way our bodies are constructed. We are built for famine, plain and simple. The first thing our bodies want to do with extra food is store it as fat and then feed the body. When we have no food, the body will save it's fat stores for last. High intensity exercise or low intesity, either way you're using energy. It has to come from somewhere and it's going to end up being your lean muscle mass. That is, unless you give your body another direction to take.

I agree with Cameleon, a protein shake would be perfect. It's quick, easy, and it lets your body know that food is available and will take you out of your 8 hour, sleep induced, fasted state.

This is just gleaned from the research I have done. I'm in no way saying that I am the authority on how things work and that every cookie cutter theory out there will apply to everyone the same. Just remember, our bodies are geared for famine, and at the first sign of no food, they will decrease metabolism, feed on lean muscle mass to reduce the amount of calories required to stay alive, and hoarde fat until the very end to use as a life line until more food comes along.

This is one of the reasons that changing your 3 meal a day / 2000 calorie total diet to a 6 meal a day / 2000 calorie diet total, will help you lose weight. Smaller, more consistant food flow makes your body happy and more willing to shed those extra pounds.

Well, I'll do fasted for the same reason some people will do non-fasted - I prefer it! I cannot run with anything in my stomach! For cycling (mountain biking) I can eat before hand, but that is way more intense than 75%.

Also, while you may indeed be correct, it is obvious many people have lost fat and retained muscle down to very low BF doing fasted cardio. Others absolutely hate it. I don't know if this is becasue they just feel like shit or have lost a lot of muscle doing it - or not lost enought fat.

I agree your body is complex, so much so that the results may even depend on what you eat during the day and how much you try to loose/week - i.e daily, or weekly calorie deficit. I only loose 0.5lb/week cutting, so I don't give my body much opportunity to burn muscle even though I do fasted cardio. In fact my total calories burned with cardio for the week are probably greater than my fat loss!

But back to the question - I'd never go to bed in a glycogen depleted state, I value my muscles too much to even try that! Maybe if you are obese, but otherwise you must remain 'fueled' for your body to loose fat and not muscle.

I'm sorry about that. "Not fat" would be equal to "Not obese". Obesity is described as a man having a bodyfat percentage of 25% or higher. For a woman, it would be a bodyfat percentage of 32% or higher. So, if you are "not obese" then the method of starving your body before or after a workout will end up working against you.

If you want to lose fat and MAINTAIN lean muscle mass, you need food. I did not miss naming the type of exercise. I meant all exercise. It's the way our bodies are constructed. We are built for famine, plain and simple. The first thing our bodies want to do with extra food is store it as fat and then feed the body. When we have no food, the body will save it's fat stores for last. High intensity exercise or low intesity, either way you're using energy. It has to come from somewhere and it's going to end up being your lean muscle mass. That is, unless you give your body another direction to take.





I agree with Cameleon, a protein shake would be perfect. It's quick, easy, and it lets your body know that food is available and will take you out of your 8 hour, sleep induced, fasted state.

This is just gleaned from the research I have done. I'm in no way saying that I am the authority on how things work and that every cookie cutter theory out there will apply to everyone the same. Just remember, our bodies are geared for famine, and at the first sign of no food, they will decrease metabolism, feed on lean muscle mass to reduce the amount of calories required to stay alive, and hoarde fat until the very end to use as a life line until more food comes along.

This is one of the reasons that changing your 3 meal a day / 2000 calorie total diet to a 6 meal a day / 2000 calorie diet total, will help you lose weight. Smaller, more consistant food flow makes your body happy and more willing to shed those extra pounds.


What you say about having "something" before morning cardio and the reasons for it make sense, but it seems to go against almost everything that is said on this site about fasted state morning cardio. I have been doing 45 minutes a morning at 70-85% of MHR for a year now and within 30 minutes of finishing having a nice bowl of oatmeal with some protein, cinnamon, ground flax seed and strawberrys. I can't say that I have made great gains in the bf% area, but I have been keeping my weight down.

Hands down you need to re-fule, though I'd eat BEFORE the run so aminos are available right when you're done with the workout. I also would not eat carbs right after the workout either, just high protein and veggies or perhaps a peice of fruit+protein portion. In my case I've noticed that if I eat carbs right after cardio more of those carbs end up going to storage rather than refeeding muscle. Starvation of muscle tissue right before going to sleep for 8 hours is the last thing you want.

Can you do the workout closer to your last meal?

Hands down you need to re-fule, though I'd eat BEFORE the run so aminos are available right when you're done with the workout. I also would not eat carbs right after the workout either, just high protein and veggies or perhaps a peice of fruit+protein portion. In my case I've noticed that if I eat carbs right after cardio more of those carbs end up going to storage rather than refeeding muscle. Starvation of muscle tissue right before going to sleep for 8 hours is the last thing you want.

Can you do the workout closer to your last meal?


I can do my evening workout in between my 5th and 6th meal, last night I did it right after my 6th. I could also set aside a calorie allotment instead of say 50-100 cals for the "after" snack.

As for the morning cardio - I should clarify that I work out at home, and so in the mornings I literally roll out of bed (into the freezing dark abyss of 5am) and head to the kitchen for about 20 oz of water, and then down the steps to the basement for cardio or weights. I have to be done with all my puttering around by 6am - it's sort of a non-negotiable part of my day. Which is why eating anything before hand is a literal statement - just short of eating it while I run! My cardio in the morning (every other morning) *IS* HIIT, however - so... hmmm.

But by the same token I am also someone who gets downright sick when I run with food in my tummy. I was ok tolerating energy gels when I was training for my marathon (but even then... ugh) so while the evening one, I can work around making sure I pre and re-fuel, the morning one presents a delima.

I'm working on correcting a metobolic nightmare (endurance related) right now - and things are just starting to come around. The last thing I want to do is give my metabolism any excuse to bail on me again. And anything I can do to speed it up, I am all for. I'm kind of in the dark about which way to go, seeing as I haven't spoken with anyone who had a similar experience, so that is why I asked the question. I'm looking for the general rule of thumb....

(thanks for all the responses, lots of good information!)

umm, this is the appropriate formula for burning purely fat:


either entirely fasted state in the morning done for 45 mins at 65-75% HR. 15 mins after eat protein/fat meal, then 1 hour after its ok to have carbs. that way you tap into only fat stores. if you have carbs you spike your insulin levels and begin to burn the carbs instead of fat


or 5 hours without carbs and 3 hours with protein before the 45 mins. same after stuff

umm, this is the appropriate formula for burning purely fat:

You will always burn some carbs and aminos for fuel.

You are always burning some fat, even sitting at your desk.

The best way to increase metabolism in my experience is with a solid diet. I don't think you can worry too much about every last calorie at this stage, you must eat. Adding an extra 100-200kcal meal may not harm your fat loss efforts at this stage. In addition, compensating for part of your cardio with food may actually help increase your metabolism, so you shouldn't necessarily see it as wasting your cardio session.

HIIT is good for the metabolism. Fasted it not recommended, but I do medium intensity fasted for the same reasons. I would highly recommend carbs as part of your breakfast soon afterwards though.

This is a classic case of where you have to take the theory and 'optimal' solution and adapt it. In my opinion you can do this and still get effective cardio without muscle loss.

I'd eat something, but not so much because you just did cardio as why are you not eating past 7 pm? Unless you're going to bed at 8 or before, i think you should eat at least some protein later on. I try to get protein in last thing before waking up, because it's many hours before you have another shot at some!

I'd eat something, but not so much because you just did cardio as why are you not eating past 7 pm? Unless you're going to bed at 8 or before, i think you should eat at least some protein later on. I try to get protein in last thing before waking up, because it's many hours before you have another shot at some!

Likely my evening cardio will occur around 6pm, now that I have really pushed my home schedule around a bit.

I don't eat after 7pm because I'm in the downtime of my day. My goal IS to get to bed and sleep by 9pm....but....er... doesn't normally happen (11pm being my average now :o - I'm a natural nightowl so I'm fighting both going to sleep before 2am and then getting up before noon.) I try to get to bed that early because I am going to work out at 5am. I don't like to eat close to bedtime because I am hypoglycemic and it can cause horrible sleep disturbances (nightmares, etc) for me. I have just found I do better not only personally, but with fatloss when I stop at 7pm with my meals.

My evenings are pretty sloth-like too :)

Would it be ok to take aminos before cardio in the morning or will that mess up the fasted state thing?

As for the morning cardio - I should clarify that I work out at home, and so in the mornings I literally roll out of bed (into the freezing dark abyss of 5am) and head to the kitchen for about 20 oz of water, and then down the steps to the basement for cardio or weights. I have to be done with all my puttering around by 6am - it's sort of a non-negotiable part of my day. Which is why eating anything before hand is a literal statement - just short of eating it while I run! My cardio in the morning (every other morning) *IS* HIIT, however - so... hmmm.



if you are drinking 20 oz of water BEFORE you do your HIIT... why can't you just add a scoop of protien powder to 8 oz of that water? :confused: you could mix it the night before in a shaker and have it ready for the morning, then just grab the shaker and drink it instead of just water, you wouldn't lose any time that way and you'd have the protien/fuel your muscles need ;)

if you are drinking 20 oz of water BEFORE you do your HIIT... why can't you just add a scoop of protien powder to 8 oz of that water? :confused: you could mix it the night before in a shaker and have it ready for the morning, then just grab the shaker and drink it instead of just water, you wouldn't lose any time that way and you'd have the protien/fuel your muscles need ;)


Technically I could.... worry about the whole gag factor ;) But yeah, I could. wonder if that would upset my stomach the same as running with food in it does? Well, I'll try giving that a go one of these mornings also. :)

Clear as Mud! :confused: I've been doing fasted cardio, but now I'm not sure if I should have a protein shake before. I'm just starting my sixth week and if I changed my routine everytime I heard something different I'd have a new workout everyday.

I'm still leary of eating before I go to bed, but I worry less than I used to about eating later in the evening.

What's the current consensus on how long after cardio you should wait to eat? I typically wait an hour+. And should I or should I not have carbs at this time? I've been having a scoop of protein and a scoop of oats with water.

Here is what I have been able to gather (and it has not been easy sorting through all the different opinions).

If you are going to eat within 30 mins after cardio then make sure its protein/fat. On the other hand, if you consume carbs within 30 mins after the cardio, it will trigger an insulin reaction and you will stop the metabolic process (fat burning) you have just worked so hard to elevate.

Good luck!

What's the current consensus on how long after cardio you should wait to eat? I typically wait an hour+. And should I or should I not have carbs at this time? I've been having a scoop of protein and a scoop of oats with water.