I keep reading you shouldn't work your muscles to failure/fatigue. What i want to know is how do you know when you increase the weights?. You could be doing 1 rep of heavy weights and continuing onwards.

I keep reading you shouldn't work your muscles to failure/fatigue.

Where do you keep reading that? Shape?

You should experience no problems except bigger muscles by going to tempoary or momentary failure.

i have a set amount of reps i do on evey exercise so when im able to get past that amount of reps without needing help on the last 2 then i usually go up 5 lbs in whatever it is, then repeat

so what is the difference between fatigue and overload ?

in here http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11318

[QUOTE=1FastGTX] wrote

To sum up my rediculously long post here, in my opinion, muscles grow from overload, and drop-sets incorporate muscle fatigue/endurance rather than muscle overload.

so what is the difference between fatigue and overload ?

in here http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11318

[QUOTE=1FastGTX] wrote

To sum up my rediculously long post here, in my opinion, muscles grow from overload, and drop-sets incorporate muscle fatigue/endurance rather than muscle overload.

Fatigue is a lactic acid buildup in muscle, due to volume of reps. Overload is where the muscle fails because of the amount and intensity of the weight.

To see overload in action, have someone perform a personal record bench press then ask him for one more, I doubt he can do it. But if he does, ask for just one more. That is overload.

Take one index finger and push against the other one isometric style for 40 sec, push hard. Now set there and touch one of the index fingers to the thumb on same hand back and forth very fast. After maybe 1000 times your finger can't do it any longer that is fatique.

Maybe someone else can give a better definition.

Why didn't you just ask me directly? :)

Fatigue and Failure are not the same thing. I constantly try to go to (and beyond!) failure.

You should read John's MAXOT PDF, it explains it pretty well there.

Rtestes - your definition was good I thought, interesting take on it.

Some articles ive read in the past have stated that working to failure is not always good and not necessarily good for muscle growth. So it made me wonder.

For me when i reach my failure level, im pretty much fatigued and I have to rest for a bit before I can do another set or a different exercise on the same muscle group.

There's a big difference in overloading the muscles, and overtraining the muscles, working to failure, and working past failure.

You want to overload the muscle. This is what you do when you lift weights. You want to lift heavy.

You want to work to failure. Working to failure means you've exhausted your muscles at that strength level. If you are doing 3x8, failure might be 8,7,7.

You do not want to work past failure. This would be working to failure and having a spotter help you through more reps. Your muscles already failed, you don't need to go farther. Let them recover so you can go farther next time without a spotter.

You do not want to overtraining. Overtraining can be achieved by doing too many sets or too many exercises for a muscle group. It can also be achieved by going past failure, doing drop sets, etc. Overtraining can lead to burnout, muscle loss, injury, etc.

There's a big difference in overloading the muscles, and overtraining the muscles, working to failure, and working past failure.

You want to overload the muscle. This is what you do when you lift weights. You want to lift heavy.

You want to work to failure. Working to failure means you've exhausted your muscles at that strength level. If you are doing 3x8, failure might be 8,7,7.



Now I am really getting confused.

Doing 3 X 8 to failure, do you decrease the weight for set 2 and set 3 (isnt this called drop sets ) ?

Didnt someone said drop set are not that good ?

i believe dropsets are when your drop in weight and work to failure .. so you may be doing bicep curls @ 20KG, and rep till you can't rep no more, then drop to 15 and rep etc.

Now I am really getting confused.

Doing 3 X 8 to failure, do you decrease the weight for set 2 and set 3 (isnt this called drop sets ) ?

Didnt someone said drop set are not that good ?

No, you don't. Say you can trying to lift 3x8 @ 100 lbs. You can do 8,7,7. Leave it at that. The next week you might be able to do 8,8,7. The week after, its 8,8,8. So, then you move up to 110 lbs. You do 8,8,5... and so on and so on.

A drop set is when you are doing a set weight, You finish the set or fail, and immediately follow up with a set to failure at a lighter weight. So, you might do 3x8, and each time you hit 8 reps or fail, you immediately drop the weight from 100 lbs to 50 lbs and do 15 more reps before you fail. You'll feel exhausted because its pointless to do, and can easily lead to overtraining. It's like a superset for the same body part instead of different body parts.

So, your drop set might look like this for 3 sets:
8 reps @ 100 lbs, 13 reps @ 50 lbs, rest
8 reps @ 100 lbs, 10 reps @ 50 lbs, rest
5 reps @ 100 lbs, 9 reps @ 50 lbs, rest

Now I am really getting confused.

Didnt someone said drop set are not that good ?

Never expect agreement unless you only listen to one person. There are many paths to your goals, some are better than others. If a question stayed open long enough, you might see 10 different answers. You have to study, experiment, and decide which path you will take.

Hint: Listen to me, I think I am always right. :D

Never expect agreement unless you only listen to one person. There are many paths to your goals, some or better than others. If a question stayed open long enough, you might see 10 different answers. You have to study, experiment, and decide which path you will take.

Hint: Listen to me, I think I am always right. :D

Ok then , so I am listning now.

I was doing 2 X 12 on a cybex machine with 30 seconds rest between set. After a while I felt that I was not doing a good workout as I saving some strength for my sencond set and it felt like I was doing one long set with a small rest.

So now I decided to do drop set first 8-10 @ 50 , rest 30 seconds , 6 - 8 @ 40, done. This makes sense to me, burn out on the first set @ 10 , a small rest then burn out again at 8 reps.

I dont think i can do 2 X 8 @ 100, unless i do the cirtuit 2 times or take a good break between sets.

Ok then , so I am listning now.

I was doing 2 X 12 on a cybex machine with 30 seconds rest between set. After a while I felt that I was not doing a good workout as I saving some strength for my sencond set and it felt like I was doing one long set with a small rest.

So now I decided to do drop set first 8-10 @ 50 , rest 30 seconds , 6 - 8 @ 40, done. This makes sense to me, burn out on the first set @ 10 , a small rest then burn out again at 8 reps.

I dont think i can do 2 X 8 @ 100, unless i do the cirtuit 2 times or take a good break between sets.

Do one set! You have made the case for it. When we have multi-sets, we save something for next set. Maybe one set of 8-12 reps with 110. If you can do more than 12, up the weight, less than 8, lower the weight. You are actually going to a momentary failure on the positive motion. Do exercise slow with proper form.

Think you need more, throw in an isolation move for first set for a body part before you hit the compound exercise for muscle building. Say preacher curl before BB curl.

It will cut time in workout, you will increase weight and intensity. You can say, I am only going to do one set, I can do it.

Plus, you never do more than one set without equiptment change. You finish bench press, you move to biceps, you get a little extra rest without trying. Sometimes I have walk 30 ft to get to next area in my gym. When I finish, I am breathing heavy. As old as I am, I will be up to 80-85% MHR. I don't need cardio on a weight day.

Never expect agreement unless you only listen to one person.

Best quote I've read in a while!

I agree this is a confusing issue. To me going to failure is trying to get the last rep in, even if you know you will not get though the entire rep, and letting your spotter 'catch' the weight. Personally I cycle in and out of doing that - but I train mostly for strength (CNS training) rather than hypertrophy so I try to make each rep 100% quality rather than burn the muscle.

'Failure is a possible outcome, but not a goal' I think would sum up my usual attitude when lifting or strength training.

Definitely not something you are going to get agreement on, so I'd get as many opinions as you can and choose one you trust or like.

Many people feel like they are not getting a good workout if they don't go to failure on each set or exercise. If that happens you can quickly become demotivated which might me more important than exactly when you stop trying to lift the last weight.

so you should try and work to failure but not to fatigue?? (hope thats right).

so you should try and work to failure but not to fatigue?? (hope thats right).

It is your choice if you will go the volume or the High Intensity Training style. HIT directs itself towards failure. High volume leans towards fatigue. Both produce results.

Read up on them. See the Pulses and minuses of both.

by volume do you mean weight size * rep for all sets you do?.

by volume do you mean weight size * rep for all sets you do?.

Yes, or reps X sets. I do 12 sets of 8-12 reps in my HIT workouts, total, for whole body. Some people do 12 sets on their chest.

I don't do single sets because I am old, I do it because it works.

Thanks :nod: :tu: