OK, so I've been dieting hard for nearly 2 months and I've reached the 9% mark. My goal is 6% before I start bulking again. I think I've hit starvation mode now. I carb cycle, meaning I eat very low carbs for 3 days, then eat high carb every 4th day.

Typical diet on low carb day:

meal 1: protein pancake (eggs, cottage cheese, oats)

meal 2: protein pancake (eggs, cottage cheese, oats)

meal 3: Whey shake + all natural peanut butter.

meal 4: Whey shake + all natural peanut butter.

meal 5: Whey shake + all natural peanut butter.

meal 6: Whey shake + Udo's choice oil blend.

This gives me a ratio of about 50% protein, 20% carbs and 30% fat

My typical high carb day (every 4th day) just consists of low-GI carbs and good protein. Gives me about 50% carbs, 30% protein and 20% fat.

I do HIIT cardio every day, and weight train MAX-OT 5 days a week.

That's it boys... I'm burned out and I don't know what else I can add to this already grueling schedule. I also take 3 ECA stacks a day.

A little background info... I'm 16 years old, my BMR is somewhere between 1600-1800 calories.

What I'm going to start as of tomorrow, is take out the carb meal following my HIIT cardio, and replace it with P+F as many here recommend. I'm also bumping the whole deal up to a daily calorie intake of about 1950 cals.

Any suggestions? How the hell do you guys get down to 6%???
Thanks!

Your meals seem crazy. You have no fiber or vegetables or fruit. Your probably missing a ton of useful nutrients, phytochemicals, healthy fat, cholesterol, anti-oxidents, vitamins, minerals, etc, etc.

All whey shakes say on them to be used to SUPPORT a healthy diet (with real food!) but they have BECOME your diet.

I don't know the answer to your specific question, but if I were you I would start adding REAL food back into my diet.

/edit #1: Also, 6% is an unreasonably low goal percentage, in my opinion. I think what your doing is very unhealthy.

This is all in my opinion, I'm no doctor so take it with a grain of fake, meal replacement salt.

/edit #2: GAHHH Your only 16!! Your doing HIIT EVERYDAY.
You have a problem, seriously. What you are doing is *NOT* healthy and no matter what you might be thinking, you will not achieve the long term goals you want from a plan like this. It sounds like you have an eating/exercise disorder of some sort. I can't emphasize enough that I think you are taking a VERY unhealthy approach.

Please step back and rethink what you are doing.

-Allen

Your meals seem crazy.

Agreed. By the nature of the word, "supplements" are just that... supplemental to a healthy diet. They shouldn't be the diet itself. Get more whole food in there and I bet the plateau will disappear...

-R

.

I'm also bumping the whole deal up to a daily calorie intake of about 1950 cals.




I would bump the calories up a lot more than this considering your activity level and your age. Right now, your body is an efficient burning machine and it NEEDS more fuel. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to eat more, but sometimes that is just the deal.

I also would wonder if you are eating enough in the way of carbs to sustain your activity level. . . . :confused:

Yep, you need to eat more for sure. I'm surprised you were not burned out after one week on this plan.

Agreed. Why would you want to go down to 6% body fat? That seems dangerously low. Your "plateau" of 9% may be your body's way of telling you, you've lost enough fat. If you want to go forward, you might think about bulking -- adding muscle for a while, then cutting again.

Not to jump on the bandwagon...but. At your age, such an aggressive diet could be counterpositive to your developmental needs. Don't believe the Atkins hype either, it's not a healthy means to lose weight. It works exceptionally well for middle-aged couch potatoes who don't want to work out, but that is not you. If you are 9% body fat it won't kill you to eat a pretzel every once in a while. You need more nutrients in your diet that supplements won't give you. In other news, when body builders drop below 8% it is for a limited time, usually a show. They often resort to unhealthy techniques such as diuretic use, starvation, water deprivation, etc. Once they compete, they return to a healthier 8 - 10%.

Hehe... Yes I do seem pretty crazy don't I. :P

About the whey... I just find it more convenient than meat/veggies... I know, I know, before I went with the whey I was eating tons of good steamed veggies with chicken/fish/beef, but my scheculde has been crazy recently so that's what I did.

Well, I'm going to do what I should have done long ago... up those calories. I'm going to ditch the whey unless its an emergency.

As for the low carb... I'm not lacking energy at all, but I'll add them if necessary. I was doing a 40/30/30 p/c/f diet with all the good stuff (meat, EFAS, fruits, veggies, grains, etc, etc) and that didn't do smack (well... its what got me down to 11% than plateaued again).

So carb tapering is useless?

What type of diet should I follow now? I have no idea what my real BMR is considering my age... damnit.

Get some real food in there!

Not a lot of people get to %6 BF, maybe swole is at that level, but he is die-hard. Even John Stone didn't get to 6%. Do you really want to look THAT lean? 8% is already high defenition. But suit yourself.

If you are burned out you are expanding to much energy. Doing to much cardio and/or not eating enough. Relax.

Going from 30% to 20% is somewhat easy, what you want to do takes patience and is rocket science, so treat it as such. Take it slow, don't try to loose 2 lbs a week, more like 1, but probably lower.

Maybe this threat will help:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352767

Thanks.

I already checked out that thread, I read EF daily. That dude will not post his diet, and doesn't even recommend any macro ratios... meh..

OK, so maybe I'm not exactly 9%, but thats what my caliper reads. I still have a bit of flab, but have a clear 6-pack when I flex, but i'm definatly not ripped, which is my goal. A definitive 6-pack without flexing, basically. Perhaps 6% IS too low, I don't know, I'll stop when I'm satisfied with my physique.

What I more or less wanted to know is what type of diet works well once you're at about 9-10%, and how to find your true BMR... damn this is frustrating as hell.

Maybe this will help you find your BMR:

http://michaelandkendra.com/BMRCALC/bmrcalc.htm

What I find extremely important is healthy FATS. Try taking alittle more carbs and fat and lower your protein a little.

I'm not a fan of low carb dieting, nothing but trouble for me.

My diet is full of carbs and fat and not a lot of protein, most fat is saturated fat from red meat, that really drives your testosterone levels up, a little controversial but I feel it really helps.

Experiment, I bet you can get lean without doing crazy carb cycling, just eat real clean quality carbs, graines etc.

-

This is my diet, I don't recommend it but just to give a idea, it is plateau free for me and the best one I came up with the last 7 months.

1800 to 2400 calories depending on activity

40% fat, about 20/30% saturated fat from red meat
40% carbs, only graines, lot of oats and wheat
20% protein, mostly red meat

And a lot of tomato-vegetable juice.

30 minutes cardio medium intensity, and I try to stay active thruwout the day, the more activity the more I eat, or I will overtrain at some point.

Find the fine balance for your own body. I think you've been pushing to hard.

Thanks.

I already checked out that thread, I read EF daily. That dude will not post his diet, and doesn't even recommend any macro ratios... meh..

OK, so maybe I'm not exactly 9%, but thats what my caliper reads. I still have a bit of flab, but have a clear 6-pack when I flex, but i'm definatly not ripped, which is my goal. A definitive 6-pack without flexing, basically. Perhaps 6% IS too low, I don't know, I'll stop when I'm satisfied with my physique.

What I more or less wanted to know is what type of diet works well once you're at about 9-10%, and how to find your true BMR... damn this is frustrating as hell.

Why not post a picture? weight, height, a few measurements would help in determining how "crazy" you are. :)

Bump to that, I was very alarmed by your initial post, but your follow up posts have convinced me you aren't crazy or anything, just have the wrong plan in mind.

More information can help us give you a recommendation!

-Allen

First, I'd like to thank you all for replying, this is by far the most helpful forum out of the tons and tons out there.

Alright, here it goes:

AGE: 16

WEIGHT: 150lbs

HEIGHT: 5'7"

I guess my body type is a 33.33% mix of all the types. I gain muscle easily, I gain fat easily, I lose muscle easily, I lose fat difficultly. Yet I am not fat, nor am I "skinny fat". In fact, people say I'm in awesome shape, however I'm not satisfied until I see that 6-pack without flexing the same as if I were to flex.

Training experience: Bulked from 140 to 175... cut from 175 to 145... bulked from 140 to 160... cut from 160 to 150.

As you can see, I've been doing a lot of yo-yoing in the past, mostly due to poor diet... yes I actually think I've done more "hardcore" things in the past than what i'm actually doing now. I did CKD and an "ANPB (all natural peanut diet) which is basically a CKD consisting of whey and ANPB). I lost a LOT of muscle, but I regained it a few months ago, so now I just want to get as ripped as I possibly can before I start bulking again.

At one point I was more or less "maintaining" at 2400 cals, and I noticed I felt great and the weight was plopping off all by itself, but I always take things to the extreme... god knows why I go so low, its just a fear of wasting time and effort if I'm over the optimal range by 100-200 cals or so, so I just think to myself I might as well go as low as I can bare. It's stupid, I KNOW, but I can't help it.

As far as carbs are concerned, I have no problem maintaining energy levels throughout the day. My workouts and CV sessions are always intense, and I always gain strength no matter how many calories I eat (my squat PR was hit yesterday, go figure).

I think I hit starvation mode right about a few days ago, when I noticed my abs starting getting a sort of "flat" appearance, and my body looked sluggish, almost bloated!

I fear eating fruit and high G.I. carbs. What's shameful is the amount of bland tasting food I have to bare and no results to speak for it. (I only eat brown rice, oatmeal and yams for my carb sources) I have 1 cheat meal a week.

Milk and dairy products bloat me, so those are out.

I take 2-3 ECA stacks a day, multivitamins, and R-ALA before carb meals. I have 50g of malto+dextrose and 25g of whey PWO.

Well... that just about sums up my life story as far as training is concerned lol. I will have a pic soon! If theres anything else, please don't hesitate to ask me. :) My plan of attack at the moment, is upping the calories (TO HOW MUCH???) and finding the optimal macro ratio. :)

holy moley

supplements are not food you know :eek:

AGE: 16

WEIGHT: 150lbs

HEIGHT: 5'7"

In fact, people say I'm in awesome shape, however I'm not satisfied until I see that 6-pack without flexing the same as if I were to flex.

Training experience: Bulked from 140 to 175... cut from 175 to 145... bulked from 140 to 160... cut from 160 to 150.

It's stupid, I KNOW, but I can't help it.


I fear eating fruit and high G.I. carbs. What's shameful is the amount of bland tasting food I have to bare and no results to speak for it. (I only eat brown rice, oatmeal and yams for my carb sources) I have 1 cheat meal a week.

Milk and dairy products bloat me, so those are out.

I take 2-3 ECA stacks a day, multivitamins, and R-ALA before carb meals. I have 50g of malto+dextrose and 25g of whey PWO.

Only 16 and you have lost and gained 95 lbs in just a few months. Well you take it seriously, I hope it is worth it to you and you don't burn-out. I don't have any advice for you on cutting. With your experience, you might be giving everyone some good tips.

I would say while you are in some prime years, they are prime in many areas not just bodybuilding. Take part in all areas of life.

That's a little insane for 16. Eat smart, but enjoy life a little bit. You'll have the rest of your adult life after 25 to have to get strict. If I tried to eat that plan I'd gag at the site of any of that by the second day. :nod:

:(

Guys, you know how no matter what forum you go to, you always hear "hold that mayo" or "is that extra slice of cheese better than a great body"?

Honest to god, I never in the world thought what I was doing was extreme, I just saw it as being disciplined. I don't even put anything in my oatmeal, I just chew it and chase the stuff with water... I don't use any sauces or spices for fear of the extra carbs, I watched my folks eat christmas turkey and mashed potatoes in awe as I chugged down my shakes.

OK, so I'm going to do something radically different and see what happens. I'm going to up those calories to 2400 which, technically would be the amount needed to bulk. I'll keep those carbs low G.I. though. and keep HIIT cardio daily. This will guarantee that I stay out of starvation mode and keep me feeling good. Those are a good start.

I'm starting to realise that the only reason I gained fat or didn't budge during 1-2 week breaks when I allowed myself to pig out is because I stopped all physical activity. I think if I don't start myself and keep the intensity high things will change for the better.

The only problem I have here is that there are conflicting views on carbohydrate timing. If I have to avoid them after cardio and in the evening, they are all sorta crammed in the mid-day, which I find strange.

I'll be posting pictures soon. Attached is a spreadsheet of my new diet.

Let me know what you think guys. If I get an A-Okay, I'm starting this 110% tomorrow morning.

:nod:

DIET:

http://membres.lycos.fr/speedmechanics/ArnaoutovDiet.jpg

You're 16, you are extremely motivated. You are willing to do anything to achieve a goal. Seriously, you need to invest in a dietitian or get hooked up with someone to guide you, because you could be an absolute MONSTER if that is what you wanted to be. I can't think of many people at any age who are that dedicated, and willing to devote themself to sticking so close to a diet. (Of course there are sacrifices that go along with that)

Basically, you have the desire, you are starting really young (imagine having 10 years lifting experience by the age of 26!) you just need to find the diet that works for you, and esp. one that will support your goals (instead of hindering them), then absolutely nothing will stop you.

I really have no useful diet information for you. Your lifting pwo shake looks alright. Although, eventually I would think you could up those calories, as that is one of the meals when your body will take carbs/protein for purely recovery/growth reasons, and not as much fat storage. If you're going to cut calories somewhere, don't do it there. You already separate carbs/fats, and use ALA (which shows just how far ahead of most people your age, and even older you are).

My only other suggestion would be to try morning fasted state moderate intensity cardio (TradeMark: SwoleCat). Perhaps HIIT has taken your body as far as it will go, and it's time for a change. Not only that, but HIIT is very taxing. It takes a lot out of you, and along with lifting, must leave you exhausted. If you're willing to commit to 7 days a week cardio, try morning fasted slow intensity, and see if that cracks your plateau.

Don't let people tell you you're too extreme. If this is what makes you happy, and it's what you want to do, then run with it. As long as it doesn't affect your daily life, and it isn't hurting anyone, why not do it? Just because other people aren't willing (or just can't) do a diet like you doesn't make you weird, it shows you just have more desire than most to succeed.

Which brings me back to my original point (after allll that)... if you're willing to stck with a diet so closely... get hooked up with someone who can help you with your goals. You'll take in more calories, and will notice changes mentally, emotionally, and physically you never thought you could have before.

good luck

That diet you posted is pretty good!! Certainly a huge improvement over what you had originally posted.

I'm gonna go with the recommendation to switch to 45 minutes of cardio at 60% of your M.H.R. -- YES, it will feel like you aren't doing anything but you are. That will help you preserve any muscle you may have left. At your lower bodyfat percentage, your body needs to SLOWLY lose the rest of that fat (it won't want to give it up, as you've noticed!)

Also, just switching cardio to give your body something new/different to adapt to is good (changing up your routine every 8 weeks or so is good because if you don't your body adapts and your changes slow down (which you've also noticed!)

Anyway, I agree with the poster above me, you have amazing dedication to stick with what you were doing for so long and to achieve the results you say you've already achieved -- that is to be commended. There is nothing that should stop you from being able to achieve your goals, but just do it SMARTLY so you don't harm your body in the long run. You only get one, and although it doesn't feel like it now you do NOT regenerate like a lee-zard.

-Allen

I'n my humble opinion, and for what I would want, that is easily the best meal plan I have seen posted.

Don't be afraid to mix thing up a bit (I know you can't put every combination in 1 days plan), you certainly don't have to eat the same things all the time. For instance I wouldn't necessarily eat rice or pasta every day and whole wheat bread would be OK occasionally. Personally I also wouldn't be too afraid of lean-ish meants like beef and pork. Yes they have saturated fat, but as long as you don't go overboard I think you will benefit from a varied diet.

in premise diet is good, but what about post-workout(cardio and weights) nutrition? cannot argue with 9%. Good job!

At one point I was more or less "maintaining" at 2400 cals, and I noticed I felt great and the weight was plopping off all by itself, but I always take things to the extreme... god knows why I go so low, its just a fear of wasting time and effort if I'm over the optimal range by 100-200 cals or so, so I just think to myself I might as well go as low as I can bare. It's stupid, I KNOW, but I can't help it.


Don't get into such a rush. I have to tell myself that I have my whole life to get it perfect. 6 months to a year is nothing in terms of a lifetime, but it can work wonders with proper diet and patience.

I think your question about how to get down to 6% is a very reasonable one. Why does it have to be such a mystery. I suspect that after millions of years of evolution the body has mechanisms to prevent the loss of the last few % of BF loss unless it feels it is safe. Maybe its just gonna hafta take some time with you figuring out how to trick your body into why it would be better of functioning at a lower bf %. Anyway, good luck with it. I'd bet 6-12 months from now you'll be there if you stay motivated.

curious what times you take your ECA stack, and whats in it. im going to start taking thermorexin and ephedra HCl, and was wondering quantities / how often per day

Alright guys, UPDATE:

A week ago, I started a diet of 40/40/20 carbs/protein/fat and I broke through my plateau instantly. I feel incredible now, another 2-3 weeks and I'll reach my goal. I also started to mix up my HIIT with 45 min @65%. I also quit the ECA stack, so I'm getting better sleep.

HOWEVER, my face strangely bloated up since starting the diet, and I have no idea why, I'm only eating good stuff (EFAs, salmon, tuna, salad, brocolli, green beans, chicken, oats, yams, etc. etc.).

Oh well... its well worth it.

Take it from me boys, I'm glad I learned my lesson this early in my life. Long and steady always beats the fad/hardcore diet hands down. I'm reaping the rewards right now. I hope you all will too. :gl:

Be well,
-Yohan

curious what times you take your ECA stack, and whats in it. im going to start taking thermorexin and ephedra HCl, and was wondering quantities / how often per day


I took it 2-3 times a day. I tried Thermorexin before but a plain old ECA beats it hands down, I guess this might have something to do with my deep hatred for the people who make Thermorexin but eh... whatever, nevermind. ;)

Stick with the basics.

25mg Ephedrine HCL
200mg Caffeine
81mg Aspirin (optional)

Alright guys, UPDATE:

A week ago, I started a diet of 40/40/20 carbs/protein/fat and I broke through my plateau instantly. I feel incredible now, another 2-3 weeks and I'll reach my goal. I also started to mix up my HIIT with 45 min @65%. I also quit the ECA stack, so I'm getting better sleep.

HOWEVER, my face strangely bloated up since starting the diet, and I have no idea why, I'm only eating good stuff (EFAs, salmon, tuna, salad, brocolli, green beans, chicken, oats, yams, etc. etc.).

Oh well... its well worth it.

Take it from me boys, I'm glad I learned my lesson this early in my life. Long and steady always beats the fad/hardcore diet hands down. I'm reaping the rewards right now. I hope you all will too. :gl:

Be well,
-Yohan

/CHEER!!

Wow, i'm realy inspired by all your dedication man. I'm 14 and have been weightlifting for quite a while and i've realised something. In my opinion at our age as long as we eat enough CLEAN food, get some rest, and lift heavy we're fine. Don't sweat your nutrition so much---your still a kid (we already got a leg up on these old-timers :lol: ).


BTW you seem very dedicated and hardworking, keep it up.

I'm 14 ---your still a kid (we already got a leg up on these old-timers :lol: ).


Of course it only takes about 6 months of being a slob and you may never recover. I do agree with your other statement. At your age, you can make alot of mistakes in nurtition and make up for it with exercise.

Genes help, look at pictures of mommy and daddy in past to get an idea.

I must have said this the wrong way. I didn't mean to say throw nutrition out the window. But i wouldn't necesarilly be reading the label on the back of everything i eat.