I read an interesting chapter in Darden's "The New High Intensity Training" book and thought I would post the information here to get some thoughts.

Instead of taking your creatine in one shake once or twice a day, Darden recommends mixing it into a big jug of water and sipping on it throughout the day.

Here's what he says (yes I'm typing this all by hand, sheesh!).

...Hudlow and I found that the best results occurred if we applied two steps. First, combine the creatine with superhydration. In other words, dissolve the daily dosage of creatine in a gallon of water and sip it continuously throughout the day. Second, add common sugar to the solution. Sugar elevates insulin levels, and insulin facilitates creatine absorption into the muscles.

Creatine-Loading Procedures
The entire process will be easier if you have these items.
1 large thermos jug, 2-gallon capacity
1 (32-ounce) plastic bottle with straw
1 battery-operated digital food scale
1 large wooden spoon
1 (5-pound) bag of granulated white sugar
1 large bottle (210 grams) of creatine monohydrate
12 ice cubes

Pour 1 gallon of water into the jug.

Spoon out 20, 25, or 30 grams of creatine monohydrate (1 heaping teaspoon equals approximately 5 grams, but it's best if you calculate the precise weight on the digital food scale). Use 20 grams if you weigh less than 190 pounds, 25 grams if you weigh between 190 and 220, and 30 grams if you're over 220 pounds.

Pour the correct amount of creatine monohydrate into your water. Stir gently with the large wooden spoon for 15 seconds, or until it's dissolved.

Weigh out 104 grams of sugar (approximately 1/2 cup), which has the energy value of 400 calories.

Empty the sugar into the creatine solution and stir vigoursly for 1 minute or until dissolved.

Add ice cubes to the thermos.

Your goal is to drink the gallon of creatine-sugar solution over the next 14 hours. Start by pouring a quart into your 32-ounce plastic bottle, and drink it through a straw than from a glass. Having the solution cold also helps.

Keep refililng and drinking from your 32-ounce bottle until the thermos is empty. If possible, keep your intake consistent throughout the day, rather than drinking it all in a few hours.

Wash the thermos and plastic bottle with hot soapy water at the end of the day.

Repeat the same directions daily for 14 days.

After 14 days, stop loading and move to a maintenance dosage. That's 5 grams of creatine monohydrate mixed in 4 ounces of water each morning after breakfast. Continue with the daily superhydration by drinking 1 gallon of cold water but without the sugar.

Note: Caffeine cancels some of the loading effects of creatine. Don't consume caffeinated drinks such as coffee, tea, or certain soft drinks during the loading phase.

Thoughts?

I could have sworn I have read a bunch of times that creatine turns into creatinine not too long after touching liquid.

"Second, add common sugar to the solution. Sugar elevates insulin levels, and insulin facilitates creatine absorption into the muscles."

This is why it's perfect to mix one dosage of creatine in your fast carb recovery drink post workout. Insuline is one of the most anabolic hormons in the body...

Same goes for protein drinks. If you have only protein the uptake won't be as effective as if you had it mixed with carbs. Carbs raise the levels of insuline which makes the body open the cells for better absorption.

regards
Ludvig.

I don't see any reason to doubt Darden. I spend more time than ever now, reading different information regarding training and nutrition. As much as "I" like to say that loading isn't a necessity, it seems that the majority of what I am reading says to do so...go figure. Though I've seen similar results loading and not...maybe I need to better monitor my own progress? :confused:
As much science as there is out there...I really don't believe that there is any cookie cutter answer when it comes to human beings. There are just too many variables. So...all of that being said, I'd have to at least say that Darden probably has alot more experience and credibility than any of us on this board. Looks viable to me. :tu:
Late EDIT: From your latest AV...Dude you're getting HUGE!

Why make it hard when there is a simple explanation?

Have to comment this one. The thing with loading is that you maximize you creatine levels in a shorter time. After they are fueled up you just need to mainten. The exact same thing will happen without loading but it will just take a couple of extra days. There is not physical diffrence. The first one is faster, the second one slower. This can be good for poeple that get stomach problems with creatine. If you don't load you might get minor problems with the stomach.

regards
Ludvig.


I don't see any reason to doubt Darden. I spend more time than ever now, reading different information regarding training and nutrition. As much as "I" like to say that loading isn't a necessity, it seems that the majority of what I am reading says to do so...go figure. Though I've seen similar results loading and not...maybe I need to better monitor my own progress? :confused:
As much science as there is out there...I really don't believe that there is any cookie cutter answer when it comes to human beings. There are just too many variables. So...all of that being said, I'd have to at least say that Darden probably has alot more experience and credibility than any of us on this board. Looks viable to me. :tu:

Late EDIT: From your latest AV...Dude you're getting HUGE!
If you're talking to me THANKS!!!!!

(Means more than you know, really thanks)

If you're talking to me THANKS!!!!!

(Means more than you know, really thanks)

Next time I'll copy paste your AV so there's no question... :bow:

I could have sworn I have read a bunch of times that creatine turns into creatinine not too long after touching liquid.


I've read the same thing and thought this was the reason that liquid creatine has not become very popular.

This is a bit old (2001) but suggest that making liquid creatine is not as simple as mixing it with water.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462109

However, it may not degrade too much over the course of 14 hours. If it only lasted 1 week, that would be too short for most manufactures.

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/creatine/creatine-serum-powder.htm
Dug that up as well for anyone interested.

Note: Caffeine cancels some of the loading effects of creatine. Don't consume caffeinated drinks such as coffee, tea, or certain soft drinks during the loading phase.
Does anyone else buy this? The only reason I could see caffeine being detrimental to creatine is because it's a diurhetic, but if you're drinking enough water during the day, would that matter? I think it's baloney.

Does anyone else buy this? The only reason I could see caffeine being detrimental to creatine is because it's a diurhetic, but if you're drinking enough water during the day, would that matter? I think it's baloney.

Absolutely not. Some of the first experiments with creatine were with caffinated beverages and they noticed the benefits of creatine. This is one of those 'creatine myths'.

However, I think it has now been suggested that taking it with sugar is better.

I think the whole caffine think gets blown out of proportion. Like saying if you dring a cup of coffee you will loose more water than you gain! Caffine is diurhetic, but not that much! Otherwise people would die drinking all that coffee.

Kino: thanks again :) I was not sure if you were referring to me or not. Lots of other Avatars are impressive! Ludvig has a damn good physique, assuming that's him in his avatar.

All: tell me all day long to stop drinking coffee and it still won't happen. I'll agree that overconsumption can have horrible effects in many ways, but I just don't buy that low amounts of coffee consumption will do a lot of harm. I believe coffee can be a fantastic bodybuilding tool of used properly.

I can drink just a few cups of straight black coffee and notice an instant difference in my body in the mirror. Ever drink a few cups and have a good meal, then go straight to the gym and have a good arm workout? Man you look totally ripped. :) I know that's a temporary effect (after a few hours the skin will return to it's normal "soft" look), but still, it's fun!

Does the Darden book discuss the use of other supplements besides Creatine?

I am starting creatine in the next week or two.. I might use this method. 14 days seems like a long loading phase.. but i have more than enough creatine than i need for the amount of time i plan on taking it.. so i might as well do the 14 days. Any reason why not?

Also, he suggests taking the creatine in the morning.. while lots of other sources say right after working out. Does he give (or can you give) an explanation as to why morning is better than post workout for maintanence phase?

And i have to agree with Kino.. your pretty freakin huge... do you have an entire workout day devoted to Forearms?

Here is the Copy/Paste from the site
http://www.absolute-creatine.com/9.htm



* How long does creatine stay in the blood stream?

When you take creatine in powder form - it is in your blood stream for about 1 - 1.5 hours. For muscle growth the creatine must be absorbed into the muscles. So, if you are working out and deplete your creatine supply in your muscles AND you have creatine available in the blood stream, your muscles can replenish their creatine supply from the creatine in your blood.

Here is the important point - if your muscles are fully saturated with creatine and you are not working out ( so you are not depleting your creatine stores) then after 1.5 hours the creatine in your blood will be converted into creatinine and excreted.

* So, with Creatine powder - should I take it before my workout or after?

Here is our advice - take the powder about 1 hour before your workout. Here is our reasoning...

It can take about 1 hour for the creatine to be absorbed into the bloodstream - and from that point you have about 1.5 hours to use the creatine or lose it. So, let's say you workout at 10am - here is our logic. At 9am you take the creatine powder. By 10am the creatine is in the blood stream. Your muscles are probably mostly saturated with creatine from the supplement you took the day before. So, some of the creatine you took at 9am may be absorbed into the muscles - but the rest is still in the blood. At 10am you start working out and depleting the creatine in your muscles. Your muscles then replenish their creatine supply from the creatine in the blood stream. Your workout ends at 11am (you really should not workout more than 1 hour - but that is a topic for a different day). Remember, you took creatine at 9am - but it was not absorbed into the blood stream until 10am. This means it will stay there until 11:30am (1.5 hours). So, now you have another 1/2 hour where your muscles can replenish their creatine supply if depleted. In a way you are getting the best of all worlds - you have creatine available before, during and after your workout.

.....
I think, like me, many would buy the advice.

Does the Darden book discuss the use of other supplements besides Creatine?

Also, he suggests taking the creatine in the morning.. while lots of other sources say right after working out. Does he give (or can you give) an explanation as to why morning is better than post workout for maintanence phase?

He doesn't believe that any supplements except creatine is effective. A waste of money. He also thinks most take in too much protein.

He thinks you kill two birds with one stone, you get the water and creatine troughout the day, but that is just for loading. After that 5 gms in the morning after breakfast with water. He like a number don't feel it makes a bit of difference. It is one of the "no big deals".

When I was a kid, my aunts told me not to drink coffee, it would give me a mustache, I sure didn't want one of them. So I never drink coffee. which went along with Forrest Gump's study which said hot liquids will make soup in your stomach.

I didn't know that they had sneaked caffine into my cokes and ice tea until later. So I got more caffine from them then the biggest coffee drinker ever thought possible. About four years ago, I quit cold turkey and never noticed the difference. I think it is mental.

Here is the Copy/Paste from the site
http://www.absolute-creatine.com/9.htm



What do the scientific studies say about when to take creatine?

Most of the studies involved giving volunteers powder creatine monohydrate before a workout. If they were doing a loading phase it was split into 4 servings (5 grams each) and these were given throughout the day. Still other studies split the dosage even in the maintenance phase and give half the creatine before a workout and the other half after.

This all sounds confusing - but it points to two facts. First, very few studies have been done with taking creatine only after a workout. Second, the exact timing of when you take the creatine may not be critical. As long as you have creatine available to your muscles - it will be effective.

And i have to agree with Kino.. your pretty freakin huge... do you have an entire workout day devoted to Forearms?
Thanks man. :)

No, I used to devote a few minutes to forearms after each bicep routine, just about 3 or 4 sets to failure. But actually last night was the first time I've directly done forearm exercises in like 2 years.

I started this method a few days ago. Its my first time taking creatine, so i really wont be able to tell you if its better than other methods of taking creatine. Its really not as hard to do as i thought though. Just mix it all up in the morning, and pour it out into 4 32oz bottles, and bring two or three of them to work with you, leaving the other in the fridge for when you get home.

One piece of advice is that although having a battery operated scale would be nice, if you dont feel like spending the money on one, you can measure 100 grams of sugar by pouring 100 ml of sugar into a measuring cup. 1 ml = 1 g. Granted you wont be able to get exactly 104g this way, I think 100 or 110 or however close you come to 104 will not be that much different.

In regards to the comment about it turning to creatinine soon after mixing with liquid, I dug this up from the afformentioned http://www.absolute-creatine.com:

"The major down side to liquid creatine is it is very hard to make. If creatine is just mixed in a liquid it starts to breakdown into a waste product (creatinine) after about 20 minutes. So, to make liquid creatine effective the creatine must be stabilized. If the creatine is stabilized it will not break down into a waste product - and it will remain as creatine monohydrate."

Now I am not an expert, but i trust that Darden's method of mixing the creatine with sugar is one which will stabilize it in such a way. However, I am curious if anyone out there can elaborate on why Darden's method would keep the creatine from breaking down into creatinine.

i trust that Darden's method of mixing the creatine with sugar is one which will stabilize it in such a way. However, I am curious if anyone out there can elaborate on why Darden's method would keep the creatine from breaking down into creatinine.

No, I don't have anything to back it up. I wouldn't worry about it. you could just drop loading as many do.

Here is a new report (http://www.asep.org/jeponline/issue/Doc/Dec2004/Ball.pdf), same old funky science language, but I think it says creatine does its job. It does not cut fat and might not be good for cutting.