Age: 23
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 180+ (My physical exam a few weeks back told me 189, but I was mostly clothed.)
Somatotype: Haven't had enough experience to know for sure. Based on what little past experience I've had and my immediately family members, I would say I could gain muscle a little easier than an ectomorph, though I'm not quite a mesomorph.
BF%: 15-20% (If I get in a fully-flexed crunch position and pinch my entire stomach from waist to chest, I can pinch about 1.5" - standing normally, I can pinch about 1". Anywhere else, I have a "thick skinned" look & feel. No doubt I could get a ripped look in less than 6 months of average intensity training.)
Experience: beginner/intermediate. I have considerable knowledge of weightlifting exercises and technique, but lack extensive experience. I have been on an exercising hiatus for years now, barring a few random workouts the last few months.

So, it may be obvious that this is the year I start my consistent (and hopefully year-long) workout regimen. My ideal starting point is a clean bulking phase. While I may know exercise technique, nutrition is a foreign language to me. Trying to match up proteins, carbs and fats with relevant foods and eat them in relevant amounts at relevant times has left a head-size dent on this PC desk, and try as I might, I can't decipher and apply the advanced nutrition guides any further than I can a Japanese flight manual. What I need is a general starting point which I can easily modify as the need arises, instead of trying to figure out every last detail before I ever start this plan (doing so has cost me months already, and with this new year I won't waste any more time - it's become quite obvious the only way I'll ever figure this out is an ongoing combination of reading and personal experience).

Partly inspired by a "return to basics" movement on another forum, I would like to avoid meals which read like "four 8"hx3"d cups of nut brand #1, 18 grams of nut brand #2, 16.5 oz of milk, 4.8 oz of water at 46°F, 3221 grains of whey protein" and stick with meals consisting of regular everyday food. I assume this would require the 6-daily-meals plan with a bed-time serving of cottage cheese. Due to unemployment, my schedule is up in the air right now, however I will plan it around an 8-hour workshift with an hour buffer zone for transportation each way. What I have so far:

4:00 AM: wake up/meal 1/stretch/cardio
5:00 - 7:00 AM: generic morning routine
7:00 AM: meal 2/leave for work
10:00 AM: meal 3
1:00 PM: meal 4
4:00 PM: meal 5/leave work
5:00 PM: home from work/weight training
7:00 PM: meal 6
10:00 PM: bed-time snack/sleep

Obviously the hours may shift depending on when I work, but the timing intervals will remain the same. This is also a 5-day Mon-Fri schedule - I intend to rest on weekends. So from this point, I have a few questions regarding scheduling.

First, is it OK to seperate workouts so that I do cardio in the morning and weight training in the evening? I would of course warm up in the evening, however I find cardio in the mornings mandatory to getting a good start on my day. It would be possible to begin my day earlier if it's best to do weight training following cardio, but that would probably require some massive meals to fuel me for so long, not to mention I typically see different meal timings and contents recommended for before/after cardio workouts and before/after weight training workouts. (Also, cardio is done on an Elliptical I have in my bedroom.)

Second, I've used the generic 3-hour-gap meal-timing method, but much more specific timings which break this method have been given in other threads by other members. What is the best way I can schedule these meals around both my workouts and my job time? And should I even change the workout times?

And then, all this leads to: what the heck would the meals consist of? I see mealplans that give nutrient amounts and require you to find out what foods you need to match those stats, I see food listings for this or that purpose that give meals without mention of where the workouts fit into the schedule, I see custom schedules for people whose stats and goals are nowhere near mine, and while I'm not typically an idiot, for whatever stupid reason my brain dives into a bucket of thorazine everytime I try to figure it all out.

I do not mind eating more than necessary as a buffer against potential under-eating. I stated my starting goal as a clean bulking phase, but to futher expand on that, I am not as concerned with overall muscle mass as I am with overall fitness, hence my relatively intense cardio schedule. My weight training for this year will be general purpose bodybuilding, but I will probably eventually expand and experiment with all different kinds of training in years to come.

I had stolen some of this kid's pre-contest prep meals months back (because he had the same goal as me), and they consisted of things like shredded wheat cereal, ham/turkey/chicken/tuna sandwiches, rice, apples & carrots, peanuts & almonds, hamburgers & steaks cooked on the Foreman... you know, things a college-age brat like me can handle making :P Those sandwiches I'm really down with - White Hen does these deli sandwiches that had a light coat of Mayonnaise on each piece of bread, layered with lettuce, a load of ham/turkey/chicken, tomato slices and piece of cheese. Those have become a personal favorite of mine, I make them all the time. Then I hear some other kid put on 30 lbs in 6 months eating loads of peanut butter O_o. Whatever that's about. Eggs I'm probably going to stay away from, based on artery concerns everybody seems to have with them. Supplements I would like to avoid. Vitamins I'm fine with.

I think that about covers it. It's way late and I should have been to bed over 4 hours ago, so I'm sure I'm forgetting something important, but oh well. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'll reply with what I've garnered from this board:

1- I think it's recommended (optimal) to seperate cardio and weight lifting and your schedule seems to account for that. There's nothing to change here.

2- Timing, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, are you saying you will deviate from what you posted?
The only thing I would be concerned with is the pwo drink for your weightlifting session and the meal that follows it. That and getting adequate rest.

3- Dietwise, it's really up to you. You could follow the cpf 50/30/20, 40/40/20, 40/30/30, or whatever other ratios are out there.
I'm also 5'9, started at 195 with probably 18-20% bf and killed off some lbm, sadly, before finding this site. I'll attach my excel plan that I'm following right now. It's a pretty plain diet but it has worked. Just insert / replace whatever values you want and perhaps reference this site http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

It sounds like you have a ton of info already, just a matter of applying it. Good luck :tu:

Hmm can't attach xls's, here's a url
https://home.comcast.net/~h2ser/MealPlan-24Dec2004.xls

1- I think it's recommended (optimal) to seperate cardio and weight lifting and your schedule seems to account for that. There's nothing to change here.That seems to be the majority opinion among everybody else I've asked. Good, I'll leave it as-is.
2- Timing, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, are you saying you will deviate from what you posted?I'm saying I will if it's what's best, and also that I don't know what's best :P I hear pre-workout suggestions ranging from a full meal 60-90 minutes before to a quick shake 15 minutes before, and post-workout suggestions range from 0-30 minutes after (regardless of how long the workout was) to exactly 60 minutes after beginning the workout (even if you're still working out). And there's always post-post-workout suggestions for 90-120 after that.
3- Dietwise, it's really up to you. You could follow the cpf 50/30/20, 40/40/20, 40/30/30, or whatever other ratios are out there.Yeah, I suppose this is just one of those things I'll have to decide what's best based on experience.
I'm also 5'9, started at 195 with probably 18-20% bf and killed off some lbm, sadly, before finding this site.Precisely what I'm trying not to do. If it's not too much hassle for you to answer, what specifically did you do wrong to accomplish that?
I'll attach my excel plan that I'm following right now. It's a pretty plain diet but it has worked. Just insert / replace whatever values you want and perhaps reference this site http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

It sounds like you have a ton of info already, just a matter of applying it. Good luck :tu:

Hmm can't attach xls's, here's a url
https://home.comcast.net/~h2ser/MealPlan-24Dec2004.xlsNeat, thanks a lot. I like your layout, and the pricing index is a great idea too. I'll have to set up something similar. Maybe it's a good idea to use the extra spreadsheet pages to separate the meal sets and meal compositions instead of a big gap.

I'm saying I will if it's what's best, and also that I don't know what's best :P I hear pre-workout suggestions ranging from a full meal 60-90 minutes before to a quick shake 15 minutes before, and post-workout suggestions range from 0-30 minutes after (regardless of how long the workout was) to exactly 60 minutes after beginning the workout (even if you're still working out). And there's always post-post-workout suggestions for 90-120 after that.
]

This depends alot on what your goals are....

regards
Ludvig.

Precisely what I'm trying not to do. If it's not too much hassle for you to answer, what specifically did you do wrong to accomplish that?

It was mostly due to bad dieting and bad training. I was eating way under deficit, not even clean at that, and over training through running a ton and uhm... basically doing bicep/tricep dumbbell exercises as my weight training portion. Bit disappointing thinking how much further along I could be.

I'm not sure how much lbm people lose while cutting with respect to the rate and lbm/fat ratio, but I may have lost from 7-10 pounds lbm in the 25ish pounds cut so far, most of it from the earlier period.

Yeah, the excel could be cleaned up, too lazy and semi-incompetent with the program to do it :d_rolleye

Regarding your question of what meals should consist of, here (http://tinyurl.com/6jw8x) is a link I like to refer to from time to time. While it's not set in stone, I believe it to be pretty comprehensive. Take a look


Jason

a personal favorite meal of mine of late has been 1 cup of brown rice, a chicken breast and some steamed veggies (carrots, broccoli, green beans, etc.) you'd have to mess with your portions to get the macros right for your plan, but mine breaks down nicely to a 40/40/20 (i drizzle a small amount of olive oil on the veggies for some extra fat...chicken and rice just dont have much fat in them...go figure :p )

another is a neat little invention of mine, its wholegrain pancake mix blended with protien powder, egg whites and a little oil...makes some pretty bitchin pancakes :D

Thanks for the replies everybody :)
This depends alot on what your goals are....I briefly mentioned it in the first post, but basically I'm trying to do a clean bulk phase, for a yet undetermined amount of time. Since I don't know exactly what level of food I'll be needing to suit my workouts, I'd rather eat a little excess than not eat enough.
It was mostly due to bad dieting and bad training. I was eating way under deficit, not even clean at that, and over training through running a ton and uhm... basically doing bicep/tricep dumbbell exercises as my weight training portion. Bit disappointing thinking how much further along I could be.Oh hehe, sounds like soemthing from a classic "n00b at the gym" forum discussion :p

But at least you learned something firsthand. When it comes to things like this, I've learned from experience and adopted the old quote "indecision has cost people far more than bad decisions". I tend to get too hindered in minor details to make major progress (as with this nutrition issue). I'm more of an "all or nothing" person, and I hate to do something when I know I could be doing it better.
Regarding your question of what meals should consist of, here (http://tinyurl.com/6jw8x) is a link I like to refer to from time to time. While it's not set in stone, I believe it to be pretty comprehensive. Take a lookCool, a lot of stuff to try out there! Though, it does bring up an issue I was afraid of... I'm going to have to learn to cook :p
a personal favorite meal of mine of late has been 1 cup of brown rice, a chicken breast and some steamed veggies (carrots, broccoli, green beans, etc.) you'd have to mess with your portions to get the macros right for your plan, but mine breaks down nicely to a 40/40/20 (i drizzle a small amount of olive oil on the veggies for some extra fat...chicken and rice just dont have much fat in them...go figure :p )Nice, I think I can manage that :D That sounds kinda like a stir-fry, is it?

ANYWAY...

After having a few other discussions, I've decided I'll bump my cardio up to 5:00-5:30, still eating meal #1 at 4:00, drinking some water during the workout, and delaying meal #2 to 6:30 (showers take forever since I haven't had a haircut in over 4 years :p).

I was originally going to have meal #1 be shredded wheat bran cereal with organic fat free milk and bananas and meal #2 be one of those sandwiches I mentioned at the end of the first post. Then somebody suggested "Try have some protein and carbs in meal #1: for example keep the banana and have a protein shake or some eggwhites. Then do cardio an hour or so later. Then shower and get ready and eat 45-60 minutes after the cardio."

The reason I had the meal contents the way I did was because AFAIK the cardio workouts were far more carb-based, so I would eat a high-carb meal for the workout and eat an equally-balaned carb/protein meal afterward (just because the workout was relatively intense and taxed the muscles to the point they'd need some rebuilding). But they seem to be saying an equal amount of carbs and protein make the best meal models for cardio? Should I be going for 40/40/20 each of these first two meals? I thought there would be a notably different approach to meal timing and contents for cardio workouts as opposed to weightlifting workouts.

BTW, the shredded wheat cereal has 6g protein/40g carbs per cup, of which I usually eat two. It was also recommended by my doctor for digestive reasons (along with the fruit), so it's going in one of the two meals.

Actually, I came across what appears to be some good info earlier this morning. I was doing more searching on the subject and read an article which posed this question and answer:

"Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you’d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown."

I think I'll go with this reasoning and drink the shake for meal #1, saving cereal and fruit for meal #2 in something of a 60/30/10 c/p/f arrangement.