When I did a personal training course last year one thing they drummed into us was the importance of Core Stability. I'd never really paid attention to it. I started developing back pain and after performing Core Stability exercises for 6-8 weeks the pain went and I have signifigantly reduced my chance of further injury. I continue to do the exercises twice a week and I think they are vital to a balanced program. I know quite a few prominant personal trainers and they base their beginner and intermediate programs on developing the core.

By the way Core Stability exercises dont work the abs they work the Transverse Abdominis and Multifidus muscles that directly support and stabilise the lumbar spine.

I was just wondering how many people do them because I suspect many people are like how I was, no knowledge of Core Stability and slowly developing a back problem.

Cheers :tucool:

Marcus

Can you give us some examples of what are considered core stability exercises?

Core Stability exercises include; hovers, bridges, 4 point kneel arm and leg raises, single and double leg raises just to name a few. They are all exercises involving movement where your deep core muscles are needed to support the spine. Your abs should not be working at all during the exercises.

Give me a few moments and I'll post an assignment I did explaining Core Stability.

Marcus

Is it related to this?
http://ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=35

Is it related to this?
http://ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=35

Swiss balls are excellent for Core Stability but that link looked like it advocated working the abs and obliques. The abs although sometimes used incorrectly for stability are only useful for movement (eg spinal flexion, rotation) not stabilising the spine.

Marcus

The text below is an altered part of an assignment I did on Core Stability. It explains the muscles involved and how to activate them however it does not list the exercises. If you guys want I could scan some of my textbooks that show the exercises.

What Is Core Stability

Core Stability refers to the ability of the deeper stomach and back muscles to brace the lumbar spine and maintain a neutral spine during dynamic movements.

Physiotherapists observed that many clients with back pain had weak Transverse Abdominis (TA) and Lumbar Multifidus (MF) muscles. The TA is the deepest stomach muscle that acts like a corset to protect the spine as it connects to the thoracolumbar fascia of the lumbar area. The MF is a smaller muscle that connects to the lumbar vertebrae and acts to limit movement of each vertebral segment.

Usually the TA/MF muscles contract prior to any dynamic movement and experts suggest that this co-contraction stabilises the area, which not only protects the spine from the forces but also helps to transfer these forces increasing performance.

However many back injury patients were unable to recruit these muscles early enough to stabilise the spine prior to movement hence causing injuries and pain. Other muscles like the rectus abdominis might be recruited at the wrong time hence putting more stress on the lumbar spine.

Before I discovered the proper may to achieve core stability I had really strong abs which I thought were supporting my spine. Hence I was surprised when I starting developing back injuries. Because I concentrated so much on my abs my nervous system and my brain began contracting my abs for support because my TA/MF muscles were de-conditioned. Abs are there for movement (spinal flexion, rotation) not isometric support of the spine. Studies have show that the MF has actually atrophied and gotten smaller in back pain patients.

Therefore back pain patients and anyone with de-conditioned TA/MF muscles needs to retrain these muscles not only to make them stronger but also to retrain the central nervous system (brain and nervous system) to correctly recruit these muscles in their correct timing.

TA/MF Activation

1. Lie on your back with your legs/hips bent at a 45 degree
angle. You should have a natural curve of the spine.
2. Place a finger on each hipbone and move your finger in 1cm.
Press in firmly and this is where you will feel the contraction
the TA/MF.
3. To feel the contraction do several mild coughs or laugh and
feel the slight contraction. This is to give you an idea of the
actual muscles contracting and to try and differentiate
between the TA and the outer stomach muscles.
4. Next contract your pelvic floor muscles by pretending you
need to go to toilet and you must stop yourself from
urinating.
5. Now slightly suck in your belly button towards your spine and
you should feel the TA/MF contract.
6. Don’t suck in you belly too much, it should be easy to feel
the contraction.
7. When you contract the TA the Rectus Abdominis should
remain relaxed.
8. Breath as naturally as possible through your nose.

You should practice holding the TA/MF contraction as long as you can while breathing normally and then while breathing deeply. Practice the contraction standing, lying on your stomach and walking.

The goal is to be able to automatically contract the TA and hold it while you walk, lift things, workout at the gym and run. It should be activating all the time during the day whenever movement is present and the lumbar spine needs to be supported.

One you can easily contract the TA/MF you can then progress though certain exercises that strengthen and improve the Central Nervous Systems coordination.

Marcus :tucool:

Marcus,

Thanks for the info. If you could scan in some of the exercises that would be great.

I play alot of golf, and I think core stability exercises would be great for golf.

Marcus,

Thanks for the info. If you could scan in some of the exercises that would be great.

I play alot of golf, and I think core stability exercises would be great for golf.

When I checked out my old textbooks ready to scan them I realised they only have descriptions, no pictures and we were taught personally how to do them.

That are not that hard so what I've done is draw some diagrams using paint. I know they are really really crappy but they give you an idea as to what the exercises are.

Follow the instructions carefully, they are not like normal exercises. Its not hard as in strenuous but its hard to do them properly (eg, activating the right muscles and keeping the spine in its proper position.

The exercises listed below are the main ones but there are many more prgressions and variations. If you have any problems just ask an instrctor at your gym and they should be able to help.

After progressing through these exercises my back pain disapeared and my trunk feels so much stronger. Even if you dont have back pain or problems they will prevent now and in later life when your body begins to deteriorate.

Here are the exercises progressions and the diagrams are at the end in the same order (from left to right)

Marcus

Core Stability Exercise Progression

The exercises progress from easier to harder versions. Generally the more movement from arms and legs involved, the harder it is for the core muscles to brace the spine. Do not use the abs during the exercises; the whole point is to support your spine with your TA/MF muscles.

Each exercise will start with isometric holds and then progress to movement phases. With Isometric holds you will do 10 sets of 10 second holds with 10 second rest between sets. Progress by having only 5 secs rest between sets. With the movement phases do 2 sets X 10-30 reps for each stage with 45-60 seconds rest between sets.

Do not move to the next stage unless the technique is mastered. If you perform exercises that are beyond you the outer muscles will dominate and you will not learn how to use the inner muscles.

Keep your tongue on the roof of your mouth to activate certain deep or local neck muscles to aid cervical spine and head stability.

During the exercises, if possible have one hand near the hipbone to feel the contraction and the other in the curve of your lumbar spine to make sure it does not change. During the movement you should maintain a natural curvature of the spine and this must not change. If it does you are too weak for the exercise. You must also make sure you pelvic tilt does not change, this is also a signal that your core muscles are too weak.

NOTE: THE EXERCISES MAY SEEM EASY BUT TO DO THEM WHILE ACTIVATING YOUR TA/MF MUSCLES AND MAINTAINING A CORRECT CURVATURE OF THE SPINE WITHOUT USING THE ABS IS VERY DIFFICULT.

Core Stability Exercise Progressions

These exercises start off pretty easily so some of you may progress rather quickly. Before each exercise don’t forget to activate the TA/MF muscles and ensure you have a correct curvature of the spine.

Single Leg Lift

With these it is important to maintain the same spinal curvature and to not allow your pelvic tilt to change.

1. Starting position is lying on your back with legs/hips bent at 45 degree angles.
2. Single Leg Lift with bent leg.
3. Single leg lift with straighter leg (do not lift leg higher than about 45 degrees)
4. Single Leg Lift with straight leg.

Double Knee Lift

With these it is important to maintain the same spinal curvature and to not allow your pelvic tilt to change.

1. Double Knee Lift And Hold (hips and knees at 90 degrees)
2. Double Knee Lift and one bent leg lowering
3. As above but with straighter leg
4. Double knee lift and one straight leg lowering.
5. Double Knee Lift with both legs lowering (progress with straighter legs)
6. Leg Bicycling, move legs in circular motion, don’t use abs, spinal curvature should not change.

Bridges

1. 2 Leg Bridge with isometric hold activating the TA/MF. (Squeeze glutes)
2. Same as above except slowly walk one leg forward and back.
3. Same as 1 with one leg crossed over the other.
4. I leg bridge and hold with one leg extended
5. Same as above but with movement (no diagram necessary)
6. Repeat above progressions but using a swiss ball.
7. Bridge with feet on swiss ball and knee flexion movement.

4 Point Kneel Exercises

Kneel on all fours with hands and knees touching the ground. The hands should be directly below the shoulders and the knees directly below the hips. The spine should be parallel to the floor, neutral spine, chin in, looking straight down at the ground, neck in neutral alignment, chest up, shoulders in.

This one is pretty self-explanatory so I won’t worry about diagrams.

Before the movement phases prepare by activating the TA/MF muscles.

1. 4 Point Kneel Arm Lift – Lift one arm out parallel to ground, thumbs up, lower and repeat and alternate. Spinal Curve must remain the same, don’t twist or lean to one side, don’t let the head or chest drop and keep the TA/MF activated.
2. 4 Point Kneel Leg Lift – Lift one leg up (straight and parallel to ground if possible) and hold or lower and repeat alternating between legs. Don’t twist or arch the spine and follow corrections from above.
3. 4 Point Kneel Opposite Arm and Leg Lift – Lift up one arm and the opposite leg off the ground and hold or lower and repeat alternating. Spinal curvature must stay the same and don’t lean. Keep the TA/MF activated.

Hovers

For these exercises the most important thing is that you maintain a normal curvature of the spine and always have the TA/MF muscles activated.

1. Knee Hover – Knees and elbows should be touching ground. Maintain a normal curvature of the spine. Hold for 2-3 X 30 sec.
2. Knee Hover on Swiss Ball - Hold
3. Knee Hover Roll Out On Swiss Ball – Hold or do reps.
4. Toe Hover – Hold with toes and elbows touching ground.
5. Toe Hover with Elbows on Swiss Ball and toes on ground - Hold
6. Toe Hover with one leg off ground - Hold

Marcus, those examples are awesome. I am having some back problems and I think that those exercises they will help!

My mothern'law was born without a vertebra in her lower back that connected her spine to her pelvis. If she turned the wrong way at any time, she would be on her back for three days in pain. All she had to support herself were the surrounding muscles. Her doctor gave her exercises that are much the same as what you have shown here.

I think that this is a fundamental philosophy that more people need to recognize. The world is full of people with back problems.


This thread needs to be made a STICKY!

I don't do these particular exercises myself but I do deadlifts, squats, etc. which should work the important core muscles, no?

Marcus, those examples are awesome. I am having some back problems and I think that those exercises they will help!

My mothern'law was born without a vertebra in her lower back that connected her spine to her pelvis. If she turned the wrong way at any time, she would be on her back for three days in pain. All she had to support herself were the surrounding muscles. Her doctor gave her exercises that are much the same as what you have shown here.

I think that this is a fundamental philosophy that more people need to recognize. The world is full of people with back problems.


This thread needs to be made a STICKY!

Thanks for your comments Fourmat. I wish more people recognised the importance of the TA/MF muscles. They sure got rid of my back pain forever :tu:

Marcus :tucool:

I don't do these particular exercises myself but I do deadlifts, squats, etc. which should work the important core muscles, no?

In a perfect world yes however our TA/MF muscles become deconditioned due to our global muscles (abs, erector spinae) taking over and trying to support our spine.

Because the TA/MF muscles are deconditioned they dont automatically activate when needed and hence dont give the spine enough support during dynamic movement causing back pain and injury.

To rectify this you need to learn how to automatically activate your TA/MF muscles and then strenthen them with the exercises I posted above. Its also further explained above.

It doesnt take that much work to achieve this and believe me its well worth it. It will stop any pain you have and signifigantly reduce the chance of injury in the future.

Marcus :tucool:

iv'e been doing this for the past year or so i think this is what you guys are talking about...http://mattfurey.com/conditioning_book.html

iv'e been doing this for the past year or so i think this is what you guys are talking about...http://mattfurey.com/conditioning_book.html

With what results?

With what results?

i was very happy with it. it was the first time i ever started something and kept with it :tu: .. my "core" is much stronger than it ever was. i realy enjoy doing the bridges. the hindu pushups and squats are tough but good also. and he has other exercises in his routeins.

i would, however like to see some more physical gains so i'm going to start training with weights and see how that works.---

so all in all i would say thats its excellent for -total body fitness- and the biggest plus for me has been -i can do it at home in about 30min and i didnt have to buy any equipment.

iv'e been doing this for the past year or so i think this is what you guys are talking about...http://mattfurey.com/conditioning_book.html

He doesnt give a whole lot of info there on exactly what he is selling so its hard to comment.

Some of the exercises he mentioned (like bridges) are good for core stability, however, if you have poor core stability your TA/MF muscles will be shrunken and de-conditioned. Hence, when you perform a tough core stability exercise like bridges your Abs will try to support your spine because your brain has forgotten how to activate your TA/MF muscles. The Abs cannot properly support the spine and this why you can get injured.

What I have detailed is what to do to get you core stability back on track to a normal level. Once you have achieved this, doing the exercises in the link you posted will improve your core stability because the TA/MF muscles will be able to contract and properly support the spine and therefore improve.

Marcus :tucool:

Check out the book Core Performance by Mark Verstegen. I've just started to work his routines into mine, but I like the exercises.

Don

I'll add that core stability is more than strenghtening the transverse abdominis and multifidus muscles . It's stability from shoulders to hips, and includes many exercises that protect the rotator cuff and hip flexors.

I think I need to look into these...

Core stability is totally useless...unless you do things like walk, run, push, pull, stand, sit, twist, throw, kick, punch, or sleep. I don't do those things so I'm content to just go for the six pack. :cool:

Interesting article re: core stability exercise:

http://ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=35

Interesting article re: core stability exercise:

http://ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=35

Leg raises on the swiss ball are awesome, I've used them before; though I did full ones from a bit below parallel to perpendicular to the floor, rather than the lift variety. You can make them harder by doing sets with one support hand at a time (lay other arm across your chest), getting a very close-grip, and moving forward on the ball. Weight them as soon as you can!

Edit: aha, he talks about this stuff at the end of the article, awesome; take the advice and have fun!

TA/MF Activation

1. Lie on your back with your legs/hips bent at a 45 degree
angle. You should have a natural curve of the spine.
2. Place a finger on each hipbone and move your finger in 1cm.
Press in firmly and this is where you will feel the contraction
the TA/MF.
3. To feel the contraction do several mild coughs or laugh and
feel the slight contraction. This is to give you an idea of the
actual muscles contracting and to try and differentiate
between the TA and the outer stomach muscles.
4. Next contract your pelvic floor muscles by pretending you
need to go to toilet and you must stop yourself from
urinating.
5. Now slightly suck in your belly button towards your spine and
you should feel the TA/MF contract.
6. Don’t suck in you belly too much, it should be easy to feel
the contraction.
7. When you contract the TA the Rectus Abdominis should
remain relaxed.
8. Breath as naturally as possible through your nose.

Does step 1 look like that photo u posted with the rest of the pics?
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=165&stc=1

Does step 1 look like that photo u posted with the rest of the pics?
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=165&stc=1

I couldnt find a great picture but what I attached below is basically what it looks like. You can contract the TA/MF muscles in any postion but this positon is thought to be the easiest when learning. The pic you linked to is a version of a Bridge.

Ahh good pic, thanks man. I have fairly bad posture and occasionally a bit of discomfort around my back. This sounds like exactly what i need to do. My TA/MF muscles are probably really weak right now so I assume I need to start really simple and train them. Great thread!!

I have been doing core stability exercises for 1/2 a year or more now. I never knew anything about it before I had back trouble either, but ever since I did PT for my back, and then again recently for knee tracking problems, I realize just how important they are for a well balanced routine. And just cause your not lifting weights [for core exercises] doesn't mean your a sissy, heh, it means your smart :-)

Try Pilates, that will do wonders for your core. :nod:

Nice post Marcus :)
The Bermuda Triangle quote in your sig is from Muhammad Ali (at least I've seen him say it on video clips): "I'm so fast, I swam through the Bermuda Triangle and I didn't even get wet"

I've noticed that, when performing these core exercises, an exercise ball is sometimes used. I plan on investing in one of these, but I noticed they came in several different sizes. Which size would be a good one to choose? :jumping:

I've noticed that, when performing these core exercises, an exercise ball is sometimes used. I plan on investing in one of these, but I noticed they came in several different sizes. Which size would be a good one to choose? :jumping:
They're generally measured in centimers (diameter). If you're very tall, like above 6'3" I would go with the biggest, 75 cm. If your in between 5'9-6'3 I'd go 65 cm, otherwise 55 cm. The small ball is 45 cm and it's hard to do crunches on but there are other good exercises you can use it for.

They're generally measured in centimers (diameter). If you're very tall, like above 6'3" I would go with the biggest, 75 cm. If your in between 5'9-6'3 I'd go 65 cm, otherwise 55 cm. The small ball is 45 cm and it's hard to do crunches on but there are other good exercises you can use it for.

There's also something about the size of the ball and added difficultly to doing the exercises. I forget how it works though. It's probably that a small ball gives the least support and a large ball will give more support.

I've got great core stability due to my participation in Yoga!!!

Yoga is great for core stability. Check out www.yogajournal.com for some wonderful and easy to understand poses.

My favs are:
Reclining Hero Pose -- http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/790_1.cfm
Bridge Pose (note the picture looks strange, but in the picture she is clasping her hands together and resting on her shoulderblades...this feels SOOOOO good!!!) -- http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/472_1.cfm
Cobra Pose -- http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/471_1.cfm
and
Plow Pose -- http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/479_1.cfm

Reclining Hero and Plow feel incredible. They look very difficult, and certainly take some practice, but once you get the hang of it its really simple and it just feels incredible!! As far as core stability Bridge and Cobra (as well as downward and upward facing dog) are excellent poses to strengthen internal muscles as well as massage organs. Most people who workout think about their muscles and fat, but they give little regard to their organs. Organs might not be aesthetically important, but giving your organs a good workout is essential IMO for all around health and well being. Yoga enables you to really get a great workout for your organs.

I also suggest for those of you who wish to, to look at the theraputic poses. When I had a bad flu recently and felt very weak and very congested the yoga poses that site suggested (as well as those in BKS Iyengar's book Light on Yoga) were some of the best remedies!!

PM me if you're interested in more...

I'm thinking about purchasing a Bosu n the near future. I already do a few routines on my 65cm swiss ball.

I'm curious if any of you have incorporated a Bosu balance ball into your core training/stability exercises??? If so, are you pleased with the results?

I'm thinking about purchasing a Bosu n the near future. I already do a few routines on my 65cm swiss ball.

I'm curious if any of you have incorporated a Bosu balance ball into your core training/stability exercises??? If so, are you pleased with the results?
I've found it to be very beneficial for balance and agility work-while standing. I do crunches with it and for some reason it's really hard, maybe because I have to get so low to the ground to use it.

It's great for ankle stability and when you've got weights in your hands while standing on it you really have to engage your T.A.'s and avoid spinal twisting and leaning forward/backwards because you'll fall right off.

I am doing Pilates with a very good instructor. It seems like the exercises MArcus mentions are part of the routine. I only get to do them once a week however, due to my schedule.

Someone else here mentioned Pilates but there was no comment.

Anyone have any opinions about Pilates as Core Work?

I am trying to fit in a power yoga at night. We go through 45 poses in about 1 1/2 hours. Obviously, with this apporach there is not time to try to do them correctly. However, I have discovered that progress comes over the weeks as with each class I do each pose better and better. I am usually such a perfectionist, I owuld normally not have tolerance ofr this approach. But now that I see progress, I like the fact that I get through 45 poses in a class instead of 5 or 6.

Any comments on that as Core work? I saw lemon song saying he does Yoga--but is it the same?

I once asked my friend how he had such awesome abs. Of course he had a low BF%, but it took a while to get him to tell me what he did to "peak" his abs. After much persuasion, he told me that he did something similar to that Plow Pose while flexing his abs. He also asked me not to tell anyone.....
The pic made me think of it.
Interesting to say the least.
:confused:

...

:d_eek:

I just had a Personal training session with an instructor at Golds Gym.. that what they start you out with Core workouts.. I sure felt it afterwards.. Never worked those muscles much.. :)

I am doing Pilates with a very good instructor. It seems like the exercises MArcus mentions are part of the routine. I only get to do them once a week however, due to my schedule.

Someone else here mentioned Pilates but there was no comment.

Anyone have any opinions about Pilates as Core Work?

I am trying to fit in a power yoga at night. We go through 45 poses in about 1 1/2 hours. Obviously, with this apporach there is not time to try to do them correctly. However, I have discovered that progress comes over the weeks as with each class I do each pose better and better. I am usually such a perfectionist, I owuld normally not have tolerance ofr this approach. But now that I see progress, I like the fact that I get through 45 poses in a class instead of 5 or 6.

Any comments on that as Core work? I saw lemon song saying he does Yoga--but is it the same?

Pilates is excellent for core work. I've done heaps of yoga and a few Pilates classes. I must say that for core work, Pilates is much better. Yoga is good but some poses are way to stressful on the core of someone with a weak core. In my yoga class there have been a few people that have progressed a little too quickly and complain about back pain. Unlike Yoga, Pilates is structured around the core and specifically targets the right muscles. Dont stop doing yoga though, just be aware of your core and what you have to do to maintain it.

As someone who just recently returned to the gym after a lower back (muscular, not a disc problem, thankfully), I can say that core-strengthening exercises DO work, without a doubt. In fact, they are essential to a full recovery from certain injuries, and to prevent certain others.

Also important, but often ignored by a lot of people, are stretches for the hamstrings and the paraformis. The exercises, those stretches, and deadlifts (starting light and working my way back up to high intensity) managed to fix a 6-year-long injury in about three weeks flat.

As someone who just recently returned to the gym after a lower back (muscular, not a disc problem, thankfully), I can say that core-strengthening exercises DO work, without a doubt. In fact, they are essential to a full recovery from certain injuries, and to prevent certain others.

Also important, but often ignored by a lot of people, are stretches for the hamstrings and the paraformis. The exercises, those stretches, and deadlifts (starting light and working my way back up to high intensity) managed to fix a 6-year-long injury in about three weeks flat.
Would you mind sharing your routine? Do you stretch differently than in the past, or did you never stretch? My problem is that I attempt to do core exercises, stretch, and do hyperextensions really slowly but
I still have a really weak low back and core and am not 'getting a good stretch'. Any advice?

Would you mind sharing your routine? Do you stretch differently than in the past, or did you never stretch? My problem is that I attempt to do core exercises, stretch, and do hyperextensions really slowly but
I still have a really weak low back and core and am not 'getting a good stretch'. Any advice?


bump

If you want core stability I recommend training without a weightlifting belt and performing squats, deadlifts, and single arm military presses.

Get to some respectable poundages in these exericises and I guarantee you will have more core stability than anyone playing with a rubber ball or whatever other stuff is being recommended these days.

If you want core stability I recommend training without a weightlifting belt and performing squats, deadlifts, and single arm military presses.

Get to some respectable poundages in these exericises and I guarantee you will have more core stability than anyone playing with a rubber ball or whatever other stuff is being recommended these days.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=11648&postcount=12

If your TA/MF muscles are already de-conditioned like they are with many people, these exercises (squats etc.) will only make things worse. Once your TA/MF muscles are functioning properly, then yes these exercises are excellent to maintain and improve core stability. The exercises I have posted are for people with POOR core stability and youd be suprised how many people (office workers (sedentary) for example) have this problem.

Marcus, please explain to me how the exercises I have described will make things worse.

Be careful, I am very well versed in these matters...

Marcus, please explain to me how the exercises I have described will make things worse.
I think Marcus is talking about people whose bodies don't know how to properly "use" their core muscles in the first place. Core muscles, by his definition, are the ones used to keep the spine neutral - these are not your visible abs, but the deeper stomach and back muscles.

If you look at Marcus' first posts in this thread, you'll see that he doesn't talk about stability balls or other tools - he has a series of simple exercises that emphasize isometrically contracting these deeper muscles.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=7372&postcount=6
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=7676&postcount=8

If your body doesn't know how to use these deeper muscles, or they aren't recruited first for stabilization, it can lead to various injuries. If your body doesn't pick up on how to use them with squats, deadlifts, and one-armed presses then it will try to compensate using your overlying muscles. Anatomically this doesn't make sense and is what could worsen the problem.

You see this compensation often with people with untreated rotator cuff injuries. When you go into a sports trainer to get the injury treated the first thing they do, after they find what rotations cause pain, is check to see if you're using other muscles to compensate. If you are, you not only start treatment but also start using specific drills to reteach your body to use the correct muscles.

That's about the extent of what I know about the subject, so others will have to correct me (to my knowledge, all I've said is true, but I may be mistaken) or add additional information.

I have a problem with your post on several fronts but I will wait for the other gentleman's opinion before I respond.

I entirely agree with Chicanerous and Marcus.

Chris, If you have no core stability you will not acquire it through squatting and deadlifting heavy and often as you prescribe. No offense, but your words are a perfect example of how most trainers mistakenly bring more harm than good to their clients who have no core strength or awareness. It seems like oversimplification to me. "just do it" -right? :(

You may call stability balls silly because they don't involve huge poundages and explosive strength but that's the whole point. Squats and dead's are awesome for people who are doing them properly. To perform them properly you need adequate levels of:

1. Flexibility in the hamstrings, hips, calves, and ankles and even toes.
2. Stability of the pelvis and thorax.
3. Proprioception (the ability to sense and properly work through
the movement). This means knowing how to relax some muscle groups while tensing others.

If you are lacking in one of these areas you will eventually hurt yourself. You will not acquire either of the above three abilities by squatting and deadlifting. It is a much more gentle and for some people a purely mental process.

Some people naturally have great core strength and flexibility and coordination. Others don't and need to try to acquire these things. They are not learned under the heavy barbell but on the mat.

I appreciate the fact that you probably know a lot about weight training and since you seem to have your own nutrition website you're probably somewhat of a fitness expert, but eventually I would hope you won't look at the stability balls or any other functional training tool as 'silly'.

I am not personally attacking you, but yes, they are silly and a waste of time.

They are only beneficial in that they offer variety so as to keep a trainee psychologically motivated and interested (so, I will concede that value).

Your assertations about sqautting causing injury are just incorrect but I will wait to fully demonstrate my thoughts on the matter.

I am not personally attacking you, but yes, they are silly and a waste of time.

They are only beneficial in that they offer variety so as to keep a trainee psychologically motivated and interested (so, I will concede that value).

Your assertations about sqautting causing injury are just incorrect but I will wait to fully demonstrate my thoughts on the matter.
Please explain why they are now found in about every professional athelte's home gym, every pro sports team's training room, and every good gym.

You probably think that balance boards and bosu trainers are stupid too so I won't even get into those.

I'm not one of those people who thinks every exercise should be done with a swiss ball or that you should be standing on it trying to balance while everyone around you is lifting real weights. But, it's a very important tool for functional strength and ab works and not just a toy used for variety.

Explanation = fad devices


Training is extremely specific in nature. Improving one's balance on a training ball will not lead to a commensurate gain in balance on the playing field.

Explanation = fad devices


Training is extremely specific in nature. Improving one's balance on a training ball will not lead to a commensurate gain in balance on the playing field.

How many professional trainers have to stand behind a product or exercise before it is no longer a fad in your view? There was a time when weight training itself was considered a fad. 'Jogging' was supposed to be a passing fancy.

According to your logic regarding balance, the following would be true

"Improving one's strength with weight training will not lead to a commensurate gain in strength on the playing field."

Therefore, squats are useless to the football player right? :confused:

You seem to be angry and getting personal.


No, according to my logic your conclusion is not true.

If an athlete increases the ability of their myofibrils to generate force (an adaptation that occurs with lifting weights after an initial period) that increased ability can be translated to the field with the practice of SPORT SPECIFIC movements. So, you train with weights to maximize the contractile force that can be produced by contractile elements of the muscles and then you apply that increased force ability to the field by training with a specific movement to maximize the adaptation of the nervous system.

Training is incredibly specific even with respect to angle in terms of the adaptations of the nervous system.

That is why the person who can run the fastest in a circle may not be the fastest straight line runner.

I'm in no way angry at you personally-but I do think it's a bit rude to label a whole method of training as a 'fad' which I take seriously. So in that sense I am taking it personally in the same way you would if I told you that what you did in the gym was 'silly'.

Your original statement went something like this:

If you want core stability, do squats and deadlifts until you can use 'respectable poundages'. Then you'll have great core stability and strength-better than people using 'silly' equipment like stability balls.

I'm still waiting to see support for your statement. When others have disagreed with you, the response is to call core training a fad. You're not the only one to do this-on bb.com there are several writers who bash core training because they perceive it to be girly in some way. The always come back to the same conclusion: It won't help your bench or squat or get you huge.

Here's my last word on the subject: If you can squat 300 pounds with proper technique, you have core stability. If you don't have core stability, the best way to obtain it isn't to simply squat and deadlift until you're strong in those movements. You've got to address the issues causing you to squat and deadlift incorrectly, which generally involve lack of flexibility, proprioception, and core stability. If you disagree, then I would refer you to the writings of some of these professionals:

Paul Chek (Chek Institute)
Michael Colgan (Colgan Institute)
Michael Clark (NASM)
Juan Carlos Santana (Human Performance Institute)

It's generally the more old school guys who think functional training is a waste. To them, if it ain't heavy it ain't worth doing and if that's you then I'll agree to disagree with you.

Not me.

I do think that the movements in question are an inefficient method of training.

Mentioning the name of trainers does nothing for me because I think most of them are quite mislead in their beliefs.

Squatting and deadlifting without a belt will build core strength very quickly. If your core is quite weak to start then you squat and deadlift with light resistance to move up as possible from there. Doing a movement on a ball will make you good at doing that movement on a ball. Of course extremely light resistance will have to be utilized which will limit the overall effectiveness of the movement. Therein lies the problem.

I'm in no way angry at you personally-but I do think it's a bit rude to label a whole method of training as a 'fad' which I take seriously. So in that sense I am taking it personally in the same way you would if I told you that what you did in the gym was 'silly'.

Your original statement went something like this:

If you want core stability, do squats and deadlifts until you can use 'respectable poundages'. Then you'll have great core stability and strength-better than people using 'silly' equipment like stability balls.

I'm still waiting to see support for your statement. When others have disagreed with you, the response is to call core training a fad. You're not the only one to do this-on bb.com there are several writers who bash core training because they perceive it to be girly in some way. The always come back to the same conclusion: It won't help your bench or squat or get you huge.

Here's my last word on the subject: If you can squat 300 pounds with proper technique, you have core stability. If you don't have core stability, the best way to obtain it isn't to simply squat and deadlift until you're strong in those movements. You've got to address the issues causing you to squat and deadlift incorrectly, which generally involve lack of flexibility, proprioception, and core stability. If you disagree, then I would refer you to the writings of some of these professionals:

Paul Chek (Chek Institute)
Michael Colgan (Colgan Institute)
Michael Clark (NASM)
Juan Carlos Santana (Human Performance Institute)

It's generally the more old school guys who think functional training is a waste. To them, if it ain't heavy it ain't worth doing and if that's you then I'll agree to disagree with you.


How long have you been training Nico?

Chicanerous, Nico,

I was going to write a whole heap in response to Chris' question but you guys have summed up my views perfectly :tu:

Chris,

I'd like to hear exactly why you dont believe core stability is important in maintaining good overall fitness. Chicanerous, Nico, myself and others have presented logical, scientifically based arguments in support of our position on the subject. If you want to be treated seriously or convince us of your views, you must respond appropriately instead of just disagreeing.

You seemed to imply that core stability training was not "functional" or "sport specific". The TA/MF muscles and the other smaller stability muscles support the spine isometrically during DYNAMIC movments. Dynamic movments are pretty much everything you do when moving around during daily life and especially during any type of sport. If your spine is not being supported by these core stability muscles you are putting yourself at great risk of injury, simple as that.

Also, its not that I dont welcome this debate, I find it good to have my views challenged. However, we have been through much of this before in other threads. Read this thread before responding (it contains more evidence of my views) and it might save us some time:

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=5018&highlight=core+stability

Marcus :tucool:

How long have you been training Nico?

Off and on for about 15 years-I only recently started learning about core training maybe two years ago.

My mentality when I was younger was to just go in and lift. I got fairly strong and put on a lot of muscle, but I ended up tight in the chest and shoulders and started developing back problems.

It was in my quest to understand my back issues that I came upon the concept of deep muscles vs superficial muscles. Once I discovered that deep muscle strength and control are a prerequisite for doing safe compound movements, it helped me to realize that my old methods would never get me where I wanted to be athletically.

I have spent countless workouts squatting since I was in junior high and it has benefited me, but it's also put a great deal of strain on my back due to improper technique. Not for a lack of trying-I even worked with a personal trainer who was a competitive powerlifter and he seemed to think my form was good-but I could feel the problems during the lift and often could not sleep in a bed at night-had to sleep upright. I used to think "If I just keep doing it and gradually build up the weight the problem will take care of itself". Thankfully I realized that this was an ignorant way to approach the problem.

I've been on a lot of bodybuilding sites and read the back and forth between proponents of core training and detractors. The proponents, like Marcus, usually deliver well thought arguments without inflammatory rhetoric meant to embarass or degrade. I can't say the same for the detractors, who seem to mainly argue from a perspective of wanting to maintain the status quo in the gym. They don't like seeing people on stability balls while they're doing 'real lifts'.

I should have learned my lesson from the past that arguing back and forth on internet forums is a complete waste of time--besides Marcus has gone through this already on the thread he mentioned above. I will defer to him since he knows much more than me about the theory and practice of core training.

Squatting and deadlifting without a belt will build core strength very quickly. If your core is quite weak to start then you squat and deadlift with light resistance to move up as possible from there. Doing a movement on a ball will make you good at doing that movement on a ball. Of course extremely light resistance will have to be utilized which will limit the overall effectiveness of the movement. Therein lies the problem.

Lets be clear here. Compound exercises do not directly work the core stability muscles. These exercises are simply functional movments that requires the TA/MF muscles to contract. Having sex (for example) induces the same response.

In people with poor core stability the TA/MF muscles become deconditioned and actually shrink in size. When this happens you cannot use compound exercises to fix the problem. Your brain forgets how to contract the TA/MF and when you're doing these compound exercises the global muscles of the core (rectus abdominis, erector spinae) try to take over the job of stability. They of course, cannot support the spine properly because they are global muscles (movement muscles) not local muscles like the TA/MF muscles which actually wrap around the spine like a corset to contract isometrically to protect the spine. When these global muscles take over, it makes things even worse by allowing the TA/MF muscles to become even more deconditioned.

You must perform the isometric exercises I posted to learn how to activate these muscles again and once you have achieved this, compound exercises like squats will certainly maintain and/or improve your core.

Chris, I'm enjoying debating this so I'll also save you some time and post a post I did in another thread containing evidence from scientific and sports journals (in response to another poster's question).

It appears that we agree on the benefits of core stability training for injured people. What I intend to prove is that a large percentage of people are at risk of injury because due to a sedentary lifestyle, poor posture and previous injuries and they need these exercises to prevent further injuries and to solve the any problems they may currently have. They may feel completely normal but they still need to do these exercises for the first 6-8 weeks of their program to PREVENT the possibility of back injury due to problems regarding the contraction of the TA/MF muscles before stress is placed on the spine. All it takes is 10-15 mins 3 times a week for 6-8 weeks and they can be confident that they can perform daily exercises and stressful compound exercises with the knowledge that they have a properly functioning core.

Rboit, I noticed that you are a retired physician and you would not have been taught this when you were at medical school because it is a relatively new concept. Hence I understand you strongly questioning it because it goes against what you were taught. I am in a similar boat, I am defending what I was taught. In 2003 I spent 1 year completing a fitness course through a university where the lecturers drummed the importance of core stability training into us and that it had to be included in a beginners program to prevent back injury. My best friend is in his fourth year of studying physical therapy and they have been told to recommend core stability training to non-injured clients as a way of preventing injury. The physical therapist I go to gives all of his clients hand outs on core stability exercises to reduce their chance of back injury. I myself have played sport all of my life and I developed back pain due to what was later revealed to be a weak core. I did these exercises and I have not had any pain since and I feel much more confident doing exercises like heavy squats. Something like this that has been so widely accepted in the health and fitness community surely cannot be just a fad. If so, why the hell do we pay these people to treat us? Why do we trust them if they so casually adopt fads? I know that they can be wrong but if we dont trust them, who do we trust?

Below I put forward my argument with references from various online publications and internet sites. I did not have time to go into the library and flick through medical journals but I have ensured that all information I have sourced was written by health professionals (Doctors, Physical Therapists) who also properly referenced their work.

rboit, If you wish to respond to this post with rebuttal, please do so with references as I have done.

One of the main things you disagree with is the possibility of the TA/MF muscles to become de-conditioned and slow responsive in people with no obvious symptoms. You said

“Frankly the idea that compound exercises don't activate TA/MF in deconditioned people because the muscles are "atrophied" and that "the brain does not contract them" makes no sense at all.”

Before I provide proof, lets discuss this using logic and a common sense example. Look at the rotator cuff muscles. Many weight lifters who do heavy weight training strengthen the muscles around the rotator cuff while the rotator cuff begins to become weak and de-conditioned as the other larger muscles become too dominant and try to take over its job. As a result you injure it like John did. You have to rehabilitate it using isolation exercises. If you had done these isolation exercises in the beginning (on top of a normal weight training program) you would have prevented the injury. This is the same with core stability. The same isolation exercises that rehabilitate the area can also act as a preventative measure by strengthening the area.

You have said that compound exercises adequately work the Core. Professor Stuart McGill (http://www.csb2004.ca/csb_5170.html) one of the leading researchers in the world on lower back stability disagrees.

McGill says that endurance training (eg. The isometric exercises that I posted that teach you to activate the TA/MF muscles for as long as possible and then to slowly add more dynamic movements) is better than strength training (eg. Compound exercises like squats).

“From McGill’s research on low back stability, the data suggests that the healthiest training intervention for the spinal flexors involves muscular endurance versus strength training. McGill states that ‘the safest and mechanically most justifiable approach to enhancing lumbar stability through exercise entails a philosophical approach consistent with endurance, not strength; that ensures a neutral spine posture when under load (or more specifically avoids end range positions) and that encourages abdominal muscle cocontraction and bracing in a functional way’”. (http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/lowbackstability.html)

At the end there is says “and that encourages abdominal muscle cocontraction and bracing in a functional way”. This means that once you have done this (it only takes about 6-8 weeks) you are ready to train in a more functional way which would mean performing compound exercises like squats while concentrating on keeping the TA/MF muscles activating to support the spine.

This also supported by the following quote which indicates that the abs can take over from the TA/MF muscles so when you are doing compound exercises you are not working the TA/MF muscles, you are working the abs and making them stronger while the core gets weaker.

“O'Sullivan, et al., found that synergist substitution of the rectus abdominus for the agonist transverse abdominus during an abdominal "drawing-in" maneuver strongly correlated with chronic back pain, and that specific rehabilitation that improved this dysfunction was superior to a more general exercise approach”. (http://www.chiroweb.com/columnist/liebenson/)

I have been saying that due to sedentary lifestyles, poor posture and as a result of back injury the brain can forget to properly activate the TA/MF muscles when needed. I said it in a very simple way; this is how McGill put it:

“How do injuries to the low back occur from such seemingly simple tasks as bending over to pick something off the floor? Research now shows that nominal daily tasks, as well as strenuous bodily exertions, may result in a spine ‘buckling’ (McGill, 2001). Computerized analysis of this phenomenon suggests that there is a momentary reduction in neural activation to one or more of the deep intervetebral muscles, resulting in this spinal segmental ‘buckling’ (slight rotation of a spinal segment), leading to tissue irritation or injury. Therefore, the musculature must be trained to “stiffen the spine against buckling” (McGill, 200)” (http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/lowbackstability.html)

When he says “there is a momentary reduction in neural activation” to put it simply he means that there is fault somewhere between the brain sending out a message to contract and muscle and the muscle actually contracting. Hence to prevent this from happening you need to specifically train the TA/MF muscles by doing isometric exercises. Squats won’t do because what if the TA/MF muscles don’t contract properly? You might experience spinal buckling and suffer a back injury.

My next piece of evidence comes from an article from CNN provided by the MayoClinic. (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/SM/00071.html) Although they are not leaders in health the information in the article is properly referenced and sourced from professionals. They say the following:

“Over time, a weak core can make you susceptible to poor posture and injury. For instance, the weaker your core muscles, the more likely you are to experience lower back pain. Strong core muscles keep you protected from such injuries.”

“Core strengthening is about working your muscles from the inside out. The muscles targeted in core strengthening exercises are those in your trunk — they're layered, overlapping and connected to each other.”

“You don't need any equipment to get started. Charles Davis, a physical therapist at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn says,… ‘When I first start people out on a core strengthening program, I suggest a lot of isometric core strengthening,’ says Davis”.

So basically what all this is saying is that over time your core muscles (TA/MF) can become weak and to prevent spinal injury you need to adopt a core strengthening program that first concentrates on isometric exercises (eg. The exercises I posted begin with isometric activation of the TA/MF muscles and then you slowly add dynamic movements).

They then provide a link to the following site that details the best way to strengthen a weak core. (http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke2.cfm?objectid=82AB3125-008C-48FC-9FD39C58FF7BCF66)

If you go through the slides, it first teaches you how to activate the TA by coughing (I also provide a different method in the other thread). It then begins with bridges and other exercises with minimal movement. As you move along the amount of dynamic movement involved increases (eg. The Quadruped exercise). The exercises slowly get more difficult putting more stress on the spine forcing the TA/MF muscles to work harder. Once you have progressed through these exercises you would be ready for compound exercises.

One of the main ideas behind the philosophy is that the TA/MF muscles contract prior to the movement of limbs, anticipating dynamic force on the spine and stabilizing it in advance.

“Further study showed that it is not just the recruitment of these deep-trunk muscles, but how they are recruited that is important. Hodges and Richardson (1996) showed that the co-contraction of the TA and MF muscles occurred prior to any movement of the limbs. This suggests that these muscles anticipate dynamic forces which may act on the lumbar spine and stabilise the area prior to any movement”. (http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/1028-core-stability.htm)

This was also found in research published in the Colorado Chiropractic Journal:

“Research has demonstrated that the transverse abdominis contraction precedes movement of the upper extremity by 29 milliseconds and movement of the lower extremity by 109 milliseconds. Such contraction prior to extremity movement plays a primary role in stabilization”. (http://www.chiropractors.org/51golf.htm).

Its also been shown that the ability of these muscles to anticipate force on the spine and protect it was lacking in people who had suffered back injuries. In other words, the TA/MF muscles contracted too slowly, not protecting the spine against dynamic forces causing injury.

“Hodges and Richardson showed that the timing of co-ordination of these muscles was very significant, and that back injury patients were unable to recruit their TA and MF muscles early enough to stabilise the spine prior to movement...Furthermore Hides et al (1996) found that the MF muscle showed poor recruitment in back injury patients, again showing how the recruitment of these deep trunk muscles is very important”. (http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/1028-core-stability.htm)

The article quoted from above also says that you cannot just do compound exercises and expect to strengthen the core. You must progress slowly:

“Core-stability training begins with learning to co-contract the TA and MF muscles effectively as this has been identified as key to the lumbar-support mechanism… Having learnt to recruit the TA and MF muscles correctly in various positions, which can take anything from one session to one month or more, it is time to move onto simple core-stability exercises. These exercises may also involve the oblique muscles, other lumbar muscles and gluteals to assist the TA and MF in maintaining the lumbar spine in a stable neutral position”. (http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/1028-core-stability.htm)

I suggest you, on your own time, read that whole article as it goes on to explain similar exercises to those I posted in the other thread.

Another reason a person might have a weak core could be the result of a previous back injury that they have recovered from. They no longer feel any pain and they believe they are full recovered. However, even though this injury could have happened years before studies show that the multifidus does not experience automatic recovery and becomes slow to react and experiences atrophy.

“The mutlifidus responds to injury by becoming inhibited and wasted. Once the injury resolves and the pain is gone, the multifidus wasting does not automatically resolve. This inhibition is demonstrated by the inability to react and contract quickly when a force or load is acted upon the body…The multifidus, with the wasting and inhibition that can occur during acute injury, may be one of the major factors responsible for the high rate of recurrence”. (http://www.adfpa.com/newsletter/06/medical/medical.html)

The same study also found that the multifidus of people with chronic low back pain is slow to react to stress of the spine and that they try and compensate for it with the muscles of the lower extremities:

“They found that the EMG activity of the multifidis that was seen as a response to a sudden, unexpected load was found to be delayed and smaller in magnitude in the chronic low back pain patients as compared to healthy controls. This suggests that these patients do not have good reaction time or recruitment in the multifidis and so they have to try to compensate for it with the muscles of the lower extremities. (Murphy)”. (http://www.adfpa.com/newsletter/06/medical/medical.html).

Similar findings were also found in people with back injuries by the Colorado Chiropractic Journal:

“Unfortunately, back pain disrupts this stabilization motor program, such that transverse abdo-minis contraction occurs after extremity contraction, leaving the spine vulnerable to injury”.
(http://www.chiropractors.org/51golf.htm)
Conclusion

Poor core stability is not just found in people with lower back injuries; even just lower back pain or aching is a sign of a weak core. The core muscles can gradually become weak due to a sedentary lifestyle and poor posture and as was shown the TA/MF muscles become de-conditioned and they are slow to react to pressure on the spine hence putting the person at risk of injury. You may also have a weak core if you have recovered from a previous back injury, you no longer feel any pain but the core muscles have not recovered leading to increased risk of reoccurrence. You can also develop a poor core by weight training with global muscles like the abs becoming too strong and dominant. They try to take over the job of spinal stability and once they do this the TA/MF muscles don’t work as much and become weakened.


What I am saying is that even if you feel normal you are at risk of injury due to the possibility of a weak core, especially anyone who works at a desk all day. The main point of doing these exercises is PREVENTION. It only takes 10-15mins at the end of your workout 3 days a week for 6-8 weeks and you have significantly reduced your chance of injury. Even if this post failed to completely convince you, do it anyway, what have you got to lose? I’m not trying to sell you anything; I just want people to take steps to prevent back injury.

Thanks for reading this far.

Great post Marcus-very well researched. Even though I read the original post from last year it didn't hurt to read it again.

I'll adress this to a greater extent when I get home this evening.

You are presenting studies and examples of untrained individuals having back problems. What is the point relative to the argument? The argument being that squatting and deadlifting will build your core strength quite nicely.

Now, as to squatting a heavy load or deadlifting a heavy weight not working the deep muscles of abdomen I think you may need to reconsider. In addition, if you think sex will work the muscles in a similar fashion to deadlifting 400 lbs you may also wish to reconsider.

You are presenting studies and examples of untrained individuals having back problems. What is the point relative to the argument? The argument being that squatting and deadlifting will build your core strength quite nicely.


Yes I presented SOME examples of core training on people who have or had lower back pain. That was in response to another member who did not believe that the TA/MF muscles could become de-conditioned in the first place. As you said its not specifically relevant to our debate. I wanted you to pay attention to these examples:

“Core-stability training begins with learning to co-contract the TA and MF muscles effectively as this has been identified as key to the lumbar-support mechanism… Having learnt to recruit the TA and MF muscles correctly in various positions, which can take anything from one session to one month or more, it is time to move onto simple core-stability exercises. These exercises may also involve the oblique muscles, other lumbar muscles and gluteals to assist the TA and MF in maintaining the lumbar spine in a stable neutral position”. (http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com...e-stability.htm)

McGill says that endurance training (eg. The isometric exercises that I posted that teach you to activate the TA/MF muscles for as long as possible and then to slowly add more dynamic movements) is better than strength training (eg. Compound exercises like squats).

“From McGill’s research on low back stability, the data suggests that the healthiest training intervention for the spinal flexors involves muscular endurance versus strength training. McGill states that ‘the safest and mechanically most justifiable approach to enhancing lumbar stability through exercise entails a philosophical approach consistent with endurance, not strength; that ensures a neutral spine posture when under load (or more specifically avoids end range positions) and that encourages abdominal muscle cocontraction and bracing in a functional way’”. (http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...kstability.html)

Now, as to squatting a heavy load or deadlifting a heavy weight not working the deep muscles of abdomen I think you may need to reconsider.

Yes in a person with properly functioning core muscles your are 100% correct. I want to make sure its clear that I am refering to people whose TA/MF muscles are shrunken and de-conditioned (the brain has essentially forgotten how to activate them).

In addition, if you think sex will work the muscles in a similar fashion to deadlifting 400 lbs you may also wish to reconsider.

Yes, sex and heavy lifting both elicit the same response in properly functioning TA/MF muscles. To both sex and heavy lifting they simply contract ISOMETRICALLY to support the spine. Sure with heavy lifting they may have to contract more forcefully, but in principal its the same function. Heavy lifting and sex are both dynamic exercises and they both cause healthy TA/MF muscles to activate. Its the de-conditioned TA/MF muscles I'm worried about.

Lets take an example. You have before you a 50 year old woman, who due to an inactive lifestyle and an office job has been discovered (through tests) to have poor core stability muscles (deconditioned TA/MF). She has never done any type of weight training before and is rather unfit.

So, would you just prescribe deadlifts and squats and that should strengthen her core. This is putting her at further risk because not only has she not done weights before (like many with similar problems) but her spine is not being supported properly so she could injure herself. It is most likely that her abs and erector spinae have tried to take over the job of supporting the spine. These muscles are meant to perform spinal flexion and rotation. What the spine needs is isometric support and these muscles cannot provide that adequately.

She needs to be taught how to activate the TA/MF muscles and get to the point where her body does this automatically during dynamic movement that places stress on the spine. I have shown that when deconditoned the TA/MF muscles dont activate properly:

“How do injuries to the low back occur from such seemingly simple tasks as bending over to pick something off the floor? Research now shows that nominal daily tasks, as well as strenuous bodily exertions, may result in a spine ‘buckling’ (McGill, 2001). Computerized analysis of this phenomenon suggests that there is a momentary reduction in neural activation to one or more of the deep intervetebral muscles, resulting in this spinal segmental ‘buckling’ (slight rotation of a spinal segment), leading to tissue irritation or injury. Therefore, the musculature must be trained to “stiffen the spine against buckling” (McGill, 200)” (http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...kstability.html)

So if you made her do squats, you are putting her at risk of spine buckling because a "momentary reduction in neural activation" will mean the TA/MF muscles wont contract properly. The above quote also says the muscles need to be trained to prevent this. Your training would put the client at risk. Core stability exericises safely build the client up to a point where they first learn to consciously activate the TA/MF muscles during movement and eventually automatically (without thinking) during any type of movement. Then squats would be useful to further strengthen or maintain the core.

I know you are a powerlifter and you seem to be thinking about fellow lifters and people of similar training experience. Most of you guys probably have great core stability and hence dont need to do the exercises I am promoting.

I, on the other hand, train at a gym with lots of middle aged and older people who are not trying to "deadlift 400lbs" as you say. They are just there because their doctor told them to or they just want to improve their health. These are just average people, many of whom work 9-5 desk jobs and have previously lived inactive lives. Its these kinds of people that are likely to have poor core stability. Without core training they are heading for an injury or chronic back pain later in life. All the trainers at the gym test the gym members for core stability and about 70% usually go on some sort of program to strenghten their core before they start doing more strenuous exercises like weights.

Well I think I've said enough for now. Geez, I think I type too fast for my own good. I just type away and before I know it I've written way too much :rolleyes: :)

Ok, let's qualify a few matters.

First, yes, I have never been addressing decrepit individuals of any age. I would never suggest my out of shape 70 year old father adopt a program of squats and deadlifts as his first forms of exercise.

The folks on this forum are most likely not elderly and or rehab patients. Most of them are relatively fit men and women.

Next, I have NEVER said that the "core" exercises advocated by yourself and the other stability ball folks will not work. I am quite sure they do work.

My point is that for a normal, healthy individual looking to increase their core strength deadlifts and squats performed without a belt in a progressive fashion will do wonders for them. They will develop all of the core strength they desire as well as general overall bodily power. I would rather do that than play with piddly exercises which will do little for my overall development. If I were in rehab for a back injury I might perform those movements in order to ready me for the REAL work of heavy deadlifts and squats.

Your above posts are so long as to make it tedious to pick them apart. I think you are trying to apply the wrong principles to the argument as the argument never concerned people with back problems and or deconditioned deep muscles of the lower back and or abdomen.

Now, for a little about me. I am NOT a competitive powerlifter. In fact, I HAVE competed as a bodybuilder. My 2nd competition diet was prepared for my by Lance Dreher (a former Mr. Universe) when I was 19 years old. The first gym I trained at was owned by Glenn Knerr (a former Mr. America/Mr. World and a national level NPC competitor). Mike Ashley frequently trained there and thus my early influences were some great bodybuilders.

I train now for as much size and strength as I can have naturally. I have an excellent knowledge of the iron game going back many years (especially to the pre-steroid era).

Now, back to a quick point about your referenced studies. One of the studies states:

“How do injuries to the low back occur from such seemingly simple tasks as bending over to pick something off the floor? Research now shows that nominal daily tasks, as well as strenuous bodily exertions, may result in a spine ‘buckling’ (McGill, 2001). Computerized analysis of this phenomenon suggests that there is a momentary reduction in neural activation to one or more of the deep intervetebral muscles, resulting in this spinal segmental ‘buckling’ (slight rotation of a spinal segment), leading to tissue irritation or injury. Therefore, the musculature must be trained to “stiffen the spine against buckling” (McGill, 200)” (http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...kstability.html) "

Ok, the word MAY was used with reference to this "buckling" of the spine. The analysis of this SUGGESTS that there may be a momentary reduction in neural activation to one or more of the deep muscles of the back.

MAY and SUGGESTS are not exactly set-in-stone statements.


You see, in the end, you have to be VERY careful about using studies to "prove" your point when it comes to the physiology of the body. There just isn't that much set in stone on these matters and one study might very well contradict another. You have to be able to critically judge the results of a given study and use your own experience and empirical observation to see if the conclusions from a given study are accurate and applicable.

For instance, I am currently reading a book which simply titled Human Muscle Power by Jones, McCartney, and McComas. It is basically a written account of a symposium on human muscle power. This symposium consisted of some of the greatest physiologists, biological chemists, and kinesiologists of its time (mid 80s). The book covers several studies on the topic of human muscle power and the subsequent discussions of the studies by the great minds at the conference. An important point to note here is that the GREATEST MINDS OF THE DAY could not agree on nearly any of the conclusions from the studies and all agreed that the studies mandated further study.

Do you see my point?

I have a very good knowledge of anatomy and physiology and how it ties into training. I combine that knowledge with my experience and observation to come to the conclusions I do about training.

I also try not to overcomplicate my thoughts with scientific jargon (although I can volley it around with the best).

My point is that for a normal, healthy individual looking to increase their core strength deadlifts and squats performed without a belt in a progressive fashion will do wonders for them.

I guess it all comes down to this: I believe there is a point where a person's TA/MF muscles have become too de-conditioned to give them proper support when doing squats etc. hence they need core stability exercises.

How do you know when this point has been reached? Tests can give me good idea but I admit its far from exact. I believe that if a person shows signs of poor core stability and has trouble doing the core isometric exercises, then they should be cautious and progress through them, instead of assuming that compound exercises will do the job

Also, you dont have to be injured or show any signs at all for your TA/MF muscles to have become de-condtioned, long periods (years) of inactivity is all it takes.

Because what I have written above is difficult to prove, we will never agree as to whom is right.

You are right when you question the reliability of journals etc, they do provide a good indication but should not be relied on entirely. I produced those references I posted after being challenged by someone like yourself. My "belief" in core stability training comes not from scientific evidence but from personal experience (just like you).

Core stability did wonders for me (I was a U16 national rugby player when I was struck down with back problems) and I could name 30+ people from my gym who have benefited from the exercises I posted. I know many widely respected PTs and physiotherapists who swear by it (for a short time I studied physiotherapy and 1 year studying PT so I have quite a number of friends in the industry).

With respect Chris, I read your posts looking for something that would convince me. You simply rebutted my posts instead of producing evidence that supported compound exercises over core stability exercises. I know its hard but you cant just site personal experince in a contructive debate and expect to get anywhere. I at least explained my view at length in a logical manner explaining physiological processes within the body. You could not do that, let alone produce scientific evidence. You just stated that compound exercises were better without elaborating, instead, critising my method of evidence (but not my logic), feeding me your resume and saying my posts were too long. That is simply not constructive, if you think my posts are too long, you must have a lot of trouble reading whole books (I say that in a joking, light hearted manner, not in an insulting, attacking manner :)

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Like you said, nothing in fitness is set in stone. If what each of us is doing works, then lets just let sleeping dogs lie.

Take Care

Marcus :tucool:

Marcus, your explanation was based upon a proposed theory about back problems from some scientist that you have taken as the gosphel truth.

It is NOT only the deepest muscles of the thorax that help to create spinal stability especially when the back is subjected to a heavy load. All of the muscles of the abdomen and the deep back muscles help to stabilize the trunk. In fact, according to Human Anatomy and Physiology by Elaine Marieb:
"Contraction of the abdominal muscles along with contraction of the deep back muscles [your vaunted multifidus is included here] helps prevent hyperextension of the spine and splints [emphasis mine] the entire body truck."

The second edition of Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning produced by the National Strength and Conditioning Association and edited by Thomas R. Baechle and Roger W. Earle has the following to say:

- For exercises directly stressing the back, refrain from wearing a belt during lighter sets, but wear one for near-maximal and maximal sets. The beltless sets allow the deep abdominal muscles, which generate intraabdominal pressure, to receive a training stimulus without placing excessive compressive forces on the intervertebral disks [emphasis mine].

- Individuals may reasonably choose never to wear lifting belts if they build up the strength of their back muscles and the muscles that generate intraabdominal pressure in a gradual and systematic manner and if they practice safe lifting techniques [emphasis mine]. Many world-class Olympic-style weightlifters never wear belts.

---------------------------------

You will note Marcus that they NEVER mention the issues you have brought up.

Your idea concerning how can we be certain if the deep muscles of the abdomen and lower back are detrained makes no sense to me. One can assume that an out of shape couch potato (the people who have these de-conditioning problems by definition) will have a deconditioned abdomen and lower back. Of course, by definition, the other muscles of their body will also be deconditioned by inactivity and therefore ANY training they commence will involve very light loads and only the strictest of form.

Now, another point you have not addressed. The proposed (and not certain by their own verbiage) issue of a neural "blip" to the deep muscles of the back when patients with back problems bend over may be a causitive issue as opposed to a symptom. In other words those individuals may have some hereditary defect with their nervous system in that respect and they are therfore more prone to lower back problems. Training may or may not address this problem.

So, in summation, squats and deadlifts performed safely and progressively within the parameters the body will allow shall provide a great increase in core strength and the ability to protect the spine under tremendous loads. Oh, AND you will be training the largest muscles of the body which in an of itself offers numerous benefits.

You will note Marcus that they NEVER mention the issues you have brought up.


So, because TWO books don't mention core stability you expect me to believe you have debunked it?

For you to have any chance of converting me to your view you will have to show me examples where core stability training has actually been directly addressed (not neglected) and then sytematically shown to be ineffective or unnecessary.

"Contraction of the abdominal muscles along with contraction of the deep back muscles [your vaunted multifidus is included here] helps prevent hyperextension of the spine and splints [emphasis mine] the entire body truck."

Yes, this is true, in a healthy person. The TA/MF muscles actually wrap around the spine, contracting isometrically to support it. The abdominals main function is to simply contract and create flexion of the spine. It is obvious that the TA/MF muscles have a MUCH GREATER effect on stability of the spine. If these muscles are ineffective, the abdominals cannot adequately replace the function of the TA/MF muscles.

The beltless sets allow the deep abdominal muscles, which generate intraabdominal pressure, to receive a training stimulus without placing excessive compressive forces on the intervertebral disks [emphasis mine].

Yes, in a healthy person. Does the book address people with people with poor core stability and deconditioned core muscles? NO, so the whole picture has not been provided has it.

Its obviously we're not getting anywhere here Chris. Neither of us can provide conclusive evidence (if that exists) to prove our points. I'm beginning to feel like we're debating about which religion is the 'true' religion.

It comes down to the fact that I believe the core muscles become de-conditioned and need specific, isolation exercises to get them functioning properly. You believe that a general stimulus (what would normally work) is enough to re-strengthen them. Basically, I've seen my way work and you've seen your way work and nothing is going to convince us otherwise.

It only takes 4-6 weeks to progress through the core stability exercises before the person can do heavier compound exercises, so I would rather be cautious and do them, and prevent injury.

Its worth noting that during the 4-6 week core stability training period, the person can perform weight training, but with exercises like squats and deadlifts that put strain on the core, they should be avoided or performed with very low weight. However the 4-6 week core stability period is still necessary.

For other people reading this, if you think you may have poor core stability, you dont have to drop everything you're doing to concetrate solely on core stability exercises. They can be easily incorporated into your current training program, with temporary avoidance of the very stressful exercises lie deadlifts and squats. It only takes about 15-20 mins at the end of your worktout (3x per week for 4-6 weeks) and you can be sure you have prevented possible injury.

Chris, this kind of debate is always useful and encouraged, but I believe you and I have reached the point where progress has ceased and we need to agree to disagree.

Marcus :tucool:

Chris Mason, The problem I see with your analysis is that you haven't accepted that someone can be fit and strong in their superficial muscles and even be able to squat a fair amount of weight but have weak core muscles and more importantly a lack of core awareness.

Any bodybuilding book written before 1990 will not address core stability in any thorough manner because it was not a well known concept. This doesn't mean that it isn't valid.

For many years people thought the world was flat, and this information was passed down through generations of scientists and experts.

I'm retiring from this thread on this note: If you have a weak core, you will not strengthen it by squatting! You must have a strong core to squat well but you do not obtain the strong core through squatting!
Core exercises are not 'piddly'. I don't care that they weren't part of the bodybuilding scene during the 70's and 80's. They are very important and not just for the non-athlete but even more so for the person who has been training for years but has a weak core. That person is even more at risk because they feel strong and think they're prepared to lift heavy. That's why so many people hurt their back squatting and blame the lift. It's not the fault of the lift, it's that they weren't equipped to properly perform the lift. The solution is not to 'just do the lift and the core awareness will come'. :gl:

Chris Mason, The problem I see with your analysis is that you haven't accepted that someone can be fit and strong in their superficial muscles and even be able to squat a fair amount of weight but have weak core muscles and more importantly a lack of core awareness.

Any bodybuilding book written before 1990 will not address core stability in any thorough manner because it was not a well known concept. This doesn't mean that it isn't valid.

For many years people thought the world was flat, and this information was passed down through generations of scientists and experts.

I'm retiring from this thread on this note: If you have a weak core, you will not strengthen it by squatting! You must have a strong core to squat well but you do not obtain the strong core through squatting!
Core exercises are not 'piddly'. I don't care that they weren't part of the bodybuilding scene during the 70's and 80's. They are very important and not just for the non-athlete but even more so for the person who has been training for years but has a weak core. That person is even more at risk because they feel strong and think they're prepared to lift heavy. That's why so many people hurt their back squatting and blame the lift. It's not the fault of the lift, it's that they weren't equipped to properly perform the lift. The solution is not to 'just do the lift and the core awareness will come'. :gl:


Hey Nico, let me ask you yet another question. I want to first preface it with a statement. I have NEVER done any specific work for my core using exercises you recognize as movements which will target your core. Heck, I don't even do separate ab work.

How do you explain my ability to have the core strength necessary not to injure my back while deadlifting well over 600 lbs without a belt? How about my ability to squat with well into the 400s without a belt (or anything else for that matter)? I can also single arm dumbbell military press (done standing with NO belt) a 121 lb dumbbell. By definition, the single arm military press involves keeping my torso straight and rigid while pressing a dummbell on one side of my body. How did I develop such core strength?

One more time, if I cannot obtain a strong core through squatting and deadlifting and I did not do other movements how did I get this stength? You say it cannot be done. Is it magic?

Another note, the NSCA text I referenced was written in the timeframe you noted for "core" stuff.


Now, on another note, your conclusions about my insights into the matter are quite erroneous. If someone is able to squat a fair amount of weight in good form without straining their back then yes, they have good core strength. If that individual finds their back is a limiting factor they could:

a) Practice those core specific (presumably) movements you love so much.

b) Decrease the load used in squatting to one which their back can tolerate well and then progressively increase from their as their back and abdomen adapt and increase in strength.

I would advocate choice b for already noted reasons.

Oh, one more question, one of my sponsored powerlifters can squat 905 lbs for reps using a belt only (no suit, no knee wraps, nothing else). He does no "core" movements as you describe them. He squats, he deadlifts, and he performs leg presses. He NEVER did your core movements. How did he do it? Was his core strong enough to squat over 900 lbs the first time he lifted a weight?

Man, this argument is really getting farfetched on your part.

So, because TWO books don't mention core stability you expect me to believe you have debunked it?

For you to have any chance of converting me to your view you will have to show me examples where core stability training has actually been directly addressed (not neglected) and then sytematically shown to be ineffective or unnecessary.



Yes, this is true, in a healthy person. The TA/MF muscles actually wrap around the spine, contracting isometrically to support it. The abdominals main function is to simply contract and create flexion of the spine. It is obvious that the TA/MF muscles have a MUCH GREATER effect on stability of the spine. If these muscles are ineffective, the abdominals cannot adequately replace the function of the TA/MF muscles.



Yes, in a healthy person. Does the book address people with people with poor core stability and deconditioned core muscles? NO, so the whole picture has not been provided has it.

Its obviously we're not getting anywhere here Chris. Neither of us can provide conclusive evidence (if that exists) to prove our points. I'm beginning to feel like we're debating about which religion is the 'true' religion.

It comes down to the fact that I believe the core muscles become de-conditioned and need specific, isolation exercises to get them functioning properly. You believe that a general stimulus (what would normally work) is enough to re-strengthen them. Basically, I've seen my way work and you've seen your way work and nothing is going to convince us otherwise.

It only takes 4-6 weeks to progress through the core stability exercises before the person can do heavier compound exercises, so I would rather be cautious and do them, and prevent injury.

Its worth noting that during the 4-6 week core stability training period, the person can perform weight training, but with exercises like squats and deadlifts that put strain on the core, they should be avoided or performed with very low weight. However the 4-6 week core stability period is still necessary.

For other people reading this, if you think you may have poor core stability, you dont have to drop everything you're doing to concetrate solely on core stability exercises. They can be easily incorporated into your current training program, with temporary avoidance of the very stressful exercises lie deadlifts and squats. It only takes about 15-20 mins at the end of your worktout (3x per week for 4-6 weeks) and you can be sure you have prevented possible injury.

Chris, this kind of debate is always useful and encouraged, but I believe you and I have reached the point where progress has ceased and we need to agree to disagree.

Marcus :tucool:


Read my above example of two individuals I know (me being one of them) who has never practiced core movements and yet found a way to strengthen their core to a very high degree.

I can name MANY others if you like.

One last time, I have never said core movements don't work, I have said they are "piddly" and a waste of time for any reasonably healthy trainee who is willing to listen to their body and knows and will respect their own limitations when using compound movements for the lower body.

I gotta say...Marcus really knows his stuff. :tu:

:whistle:


Man, I REALLY want to comment on that but I will refrain because between when I last posted in this thread and now I realize that I have made my point and people can choose to accept it or not. To argue the point further would most likely lead to insults and such and that is really silly.

When I post on the net I do so with the intent of educating, debunking some of the b.s. out there, and hopefully having some folks benefit from my experience (which is to include my mistakes).

Anyway, some good information was laid out on both sides and I hope those reading this thread will have learned something.

:whistle:


Man, I REALLY want to comment on that but I will refrain because between when I last posted in this thread and now I realize that I have made my point and people can choose to accept it or not. To argue the point further would most likely lead to insults and such and that is really silly.

When I post on the net I do so with the intent of educating, debunking some of the b.s. out there, and hopefully having some folks benefit from my experience (which is to include my mistakes).

Anyway, some good information was laid out on both sides and I hope those reading this thread will have learned something.

Chris, if you wanted to comment on my stating that Marcus knows his stuff, you may do so. I'm wasn't throwing my kudos blindly on the table.
I've entertained myself with the posts in this thread from the last 24 hours or so. Marcus is quite well versed on this topic, as he is in many others, and presented his case well. However, I also understand where you're coming from. The simple fact that you have never performed any core targeted exercises, yet still can deadlift 625lbs (if it was 635, I appologise) without injury...kind of throws an inarguable statement on the table as well. The truth is evident though, and well documented. People living in todays society, through the roles that many fill sitting at desk all day long, have become deconditioned. Not only has their core stability suffered, but their posture and functional flexibility as well.
Those peoples (I am one of them to some extent) bodys have adapted to sittiing in a chair for countless hours on end. Since those people make up the majority of todays gainfully employed, I believe that it is quite valid to be concerned with their relative core fuctionality, and that it should be addressed at the onset of any training program. Weakness in the core can be easily assessed during a typical profile analysis performed with a client the first time you meet with them. While you may not feel that core strengthening is necessary for yourself and associates...where it only takes 4-6 weeks to recondition somebodys internal stabilizing mechanism, it would be an injustice not to help them do so if given the opportunity. Actually, it would be unprofessional if I did not. I've been training in some aspect all of my life, and have never performed any core movements. Somehow, I'd always knock my back out doing the stupidest crap though, like turning around to pick up my shoe or something. When I did start doing some core movements myself, my back doesn't go out on me...go figure.
This thread has been up for a year now...so I'm sure that there've been people that have benefited from it.

Anyway, some good information was laid out on both sides and I hope those reading this thread will have learned something.

Exactly, thats all we can do :tu:

Kino,

Thanks for putting foward your opinion, thats a good way of explaining why core training has become necessary.

p.s. I just noticed your sig. I'm actually reading Tao Te Ching at the moment. When I say reading, I mean that everyday or two I read a passage and try and let it absorb. Great Stuff :tu:

I'm actually reading Tao Te Ching at the moment. When I say reading, I mean that everyday or two I read a passage and try and let it absorb. Great Stuff :tu:

Marcus,
Check out 365 Daily Meditations. (http://members.fortunecity.com/danemead/library/365/365date.htm) I actually have the book at home, and make it my first read for the day. I actually have another book at home which is a self writing guide and interpretation of the writings of Lao Tzu. Exellent book...I'll get the authors name when I get home, and PM it to you if you'd like.

Walt

Marcus,
Check out 365 Daily Meditations. (http://members.fortunecity.com/danemead/library/365/365date.htm) I actually have the book at home, and make it my first read for the day. I actually have another book at home which is a self writing guide and interpretation of the writings of Lao Tzu. Exellent book...I'll get the authors name when I get home, and PM it to you if you'd like.

Walt

Excellent link Walt, theres a lot of great stuff there.

That would be cool if you could PM the authors of the other book, I'm always looking for good books containing this sort of wisdom.

Cheers,

Marcus :tucool:

I've been following the lively debate between Chris and Marcus the last day as well. I was really interested in what both of you had to say. I'm just about to start weightlifting again after taking off for about 8 months. But more importantly, I want to start incorporating squats and deadlifts, as I hear so much about them, but have never actually performed them. Although I lifted in highschool and a few times on and off since, I've never actually done any leg exercises at all. I know, this is bad, but I'm going to correct this.

After listening to both sides of the debate, I think that Marcus's arguments give me enough pause that I've decided to try his 4 week program to make sure my core is strong enough before attempting squats.

Since I've never really done a lower body workout ever, and have pretty musch held a desk job for the past 7 years, I think I may be one of those individuals with deconditioned core muscles.

Thanks for discussing this guys!

Thanks for discussing this guys!

No probs, glad I/we could help.

For all you know, when you start doing the core stability exercises you may progress through them no problem, finding them easy and then you can move straight on to squats etc.

However, if you find them difficult

(ie: you cant hold the TA/MF contraction during the exercise, your abs take over or your spine keeps forcing itself out of line during the exercise. Note: its important that the spine maintains its natural curvature. Many people miss this and progress when they shoudnt)

then that is a pretty good indication that you need some kind of core stability training and that you should progress through the exercises.

Marcus :tucool:

Since I've never really done a lower body workout ever, and have pretty musch held a desk job for the past 7 years, I think I may be one of those individuals with deconditioned core muscles.

Thanks for discussing this guys!

Just noticed you're in Allston. I grew up in Brighton. Fire me an email addy via PM and I'll shoot you an example of an Integrated Training Program to look at. This would incorporate flexibility/core/balance/strength training into the one routine. This goes back to the Functional Bodybuilding thread that you had read previously. I can safely say that I am pretty well versed in that area...though, I do have to admit that I owe a member in here a flexibility program...incase he's reading. I haven't forgotten. :rolleyes:

Just noticed you're in Allston. I grew up in Brighton. Fire me an email addy via PM and I'll shoot you an example of an Integrated Training Program to look at.

Sent you a PM, thanks :tucool:

No probs, glad I/we could help.

For all you know, when you start doing the core stability exercises you may progress through them no problem, finding them easy and then you can move straight on to squats etc.


I actually printed out your system a few months ago so I could do it. I took it home and tried the initial move where you lay on your back. I think I was able to activate the muscles you were talking about. But I definitely felt that I had to do it very consciously. I wonder if I am using them dynamically when I need them. after that night I completely forgot about it though, so I'm glad I checked this thread again before progressing with the squats. Thanks again.

Well, I realised I do excercise those muscles...every now and then. I just never did the excercises you mentioned. What I do is perform things such as Standing Rows on a Swiss Ball, but instead of placing the weight on the whole foot, I try to put more in the ball/front of it. This forces my lower back to work hard to stabilize myself.
I have slaughtered my lower back previously. I work doing lighting and sound, and before I managed to be more than a stagehand I was loading trucks. This is NOT a good thing, especially when you have no ramps. I also fell of a 9' ladder onto a hard stage on all fours, which placed an incredible amount of strain on my back, and actually made my spine rotate. I have corrected most of it, except for my lower back. So those muscles are of terrible importance to me to correct that rotation and avoid the pain. Thanks for sharing!

Well, I realised I do excercise those muscles...every now and then. I just never did the excercises you mentioned. What I do is perform things such as Standing Rows on a Swiss Ball, but instead of placing the weight on the whole foot, I try to put more in the ball/front of it. This forces my lower back to work hard to stabilize myself.
I have slaughtered my lower back previously. I work doing lighting and sound, and before I managed to be more than a stagehand I was loading trucks. This is NOT a good thing, especially when you have no ramps. I also fell of a 9' ladder onto a hard stage on all fours, which placed an incredible amount of strain on my back, and actually made my spine rotate. I have corrected most of it, except for my lower back. So those muscles are of terrible importance to me to correct that rotation and avoid the pain. Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, I love swiss balls. I have three at home and I can do a million exercises with them.

Using swiss balls to create an unstable surface when doing various exercises is a stage more advanced than what I have posted here. The exercises here are to get people using their TA/MF muscles again and to progress though some simple core exercies. The next step would be compound exercises and then doing some of those exercises using a swiss ball. You can then progress further with the swiss balls and do some super hard exercises that put some major stress on your core, balance, coordination and strength. I posted some pics below. The squats on a swiss ball are very difficult. With the dips, instead of having your feet rest on a bench, try resting them on another swiss ball, it increases the difficulty significantly.

Its great that you use swiss balls because I'm sure many would tell you they are a waste of time. Sure, you don't need one to get a great looking physique, but if you also seek functional fitness and an atheletic body heavily protected from injury, swiss balls are an excellent tool.

If anyone is interested in the kind of exercises you can do with a swiss ball, check out this site (you can search for exercises on the right): http://www.sissel-online.com/ball_main.php

Its great that you use swiss balls because I'm sure many would tell you they are a waste of time.

No exercise is a waste of time. Even if it's only the difference between doing something vs parking your ass in front of the television stuffing Cheetos down your throat.

A really good core stability exercise you can do with weights is to get in the push up position with a dumbbell in each hand and do alternating one arm rows. Your hands don’t actually touch the floor; they are supported by the dumbbells. I don’t have access to dumbbells right now, but if I did I would do this exercise.

I think the choice between trad strength (squat/bench/deadlift) and core stability exercises depends on what you are trying to accomplish. At some point you have to choose between them because of limited recovery ability. Pro athletes can lift weights seriously and do sports training seriously, but normal people can’t. I chose core stability exercises because they require very little time and equipment, and they help me stay flexible and injury free. I am a grappler and I’m almost fifty. There is no way I can train hard and still do serious strength exercises. I don’t have the time and I don’t have the recovery ability.

Right now, I do deck squats and lunges holding a 35-pound plate, the only real piece of exercise equipment I own. I try to work out every day, and my routine takes less than half an hour total, including about ten minutes of stretching and warm up by swinging the plate around. Also, once a week I do a long hike with a backpack loaded with sand. That keeps my knees, ankles and feet in shape for recreational backpacking. When I am traveling for business, I do bodyweight squats and “dive bomber” pushups. Sometime, if no one is watching, I do bear crawls around the hotel pool.

Someday I will join a gym, take a few months off, and focus on heavy squats. Weighted squats are an awesome exercise, but they require more of a commitment than I can make right now.

A really good core stability exercise you can do with weights is to get in the push up position with a dumbbell in each hand and do alternating one arm rows. Your hands don’t actually touch the floor; they are supported by the dumbbells. I don’t have access to dumbbells right now, but if I did I would do this exercise.

I think the choice between trad strength (squat/bench/deadlift) and core stability exercises depends on what you are trying to accomplish. At some point you have to choose between them because of limited recovery ability. Pro athletes can lift weights seriously and do sports training seriously, but normal people can’t. I chose core stability exercises because they require very little time and equipment, and they help me stay flexible and injury free. I am a grappler and I’m almost fifty. There is no way I can train hard and still do serious strength exercises. I don’t have the time and I don’t have the recovery ability.

Right now, I do deck squats and lunges holding a 35-pound plate, the only real piece of exercise equipment I own. I try to work out every day, and my routine takes less than half an hour total, including about ten minutes of stretching and warm up by swinging the plate around. Also, once a week I do a long hike with a backpack loaded with sand. That keeps my knees, ankles and feet in shape for recreational backpacking. When I am traveling for business, I do bodyweight squats and “dive bomber” pushups. Sometime, if no one is watching, I do bear crawls around the hotel pool.

Someday I will join a gym, take a few months off, and focus on heavy squats. Weighted squats are an awesome exercise, but they require more of a commitment than I can make right now.

That sounds like a good functional exercise. What you are doing sounds good, and you're right, core stability training is a good training mehtod because it requires very little equipment, if any, and takes very little time. Its good to see you tailoring a program thats benefitial and functional in regard to the life you lead. :tucool:

I think the choice between trad strength (squat/bench/deadlift) and core stability exercises depends on what you are trying to accomplish. At some point you have to choose between them because of limited recovery ability. Pro athletes can lift weights seriously and do sports training seriously, but normal people can’t. I chose core stability exercises because they require very little time and equipment, and they help me stay flexible and injury free. I am a grappler and I’m almost fifty.
Someday I will join a gym, take a few months off, and focus on heavy squats. Weighted squats are an awesome exercise, but they require more of a commitment than I can make right now.

That's awesome that you're still grappling. I consider wrestling and all the different types of groundfighting(jiu-jitsu, sambo, judo, hooking) to be the ultimate exercise for the core-you've got to be especially strong in the middle when you're on your back defending yourself or on top of someone trying to crush them.

Mike Mahler has a good DVD out on MMA training using kettlebells-I've heard good things about it. In fact he's interviewed on one of Jeremy Likness' websites.

www.mikemahler.com

I've been doing some core exercies three times a week before my workout mostly as a warmup. I don't do much just about 5 minutes worth. But I have noticed a difference in my waist, lower back, and overall core. It looks more toned. I don't use any heavy weights just like stuff. Feels good I think.

I've been doing some core exercies three times a week before my workout mostly as a warmup. I don't do much just about 5 minutes worth. But I have noticed a difference in my waist, lower back, and overall core. It looks more toned. I don't use any heavy weights just like stuff. Feels good I think.

I'm glad to see you feeling the benefits. On top of the benefits you can actually feel, you are also preventing injury and preventing spinal degeneration later in life. And like you've shown, it only takes a small amount of time and effort. :tucool:

I didn't get a chan