I tried to read through all the information on the site and run searches but I honestly am getting alot of conflicting and contradicting information so I decided it would be easier to ask specific questions so that I can get specific help based on my body type, metabolism, age, etc...

Ok, here is some starting information about myself. I am 6'4 (maybe 6'5) and weigh about 225.... im not cut or all that muscular and I have a gut. Here are some pictures taken today of what my "before" pictures will look like before I began lifting.
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Front.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Front2.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Side.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Side2.JPG

In the pictures you will see that I have this genetic thing with my back where it curves inward ALOT which in turn makes my stomach stick out more than it should.
What I would like to look like is what John Stone (creator of the site) looks like in his most recent pictures.. the november 2004 ones. I want to cut down on body fat in the stomach area but also get bigger in the muscles.

My question is, what would be the best route to take, considering i dont have too much fat in any area except the stomach area (less cardio because of this?) but i also dont have much muscle. Should I first try to lose weight and cut up, and once getting over that phase, bulk up by eating more calories and stuff? When I bulk up though, I don't want to bulk up on fat, I want the bulk to be bigger muscles... basically to simplify my question I would like to know the best route to take if I want to go from what I am now, to what John Stone is in his first pictures. Thanks.

I can only speak from my direct experience with this ... and here's the scoop: that "genetic thing" may contribute a bit, but the bottom line is that the issue is still fat, and burning fat is what will correct it.

You actually have fat all over. You might not have excessive fat on your arms or chest, for example, but a lot of your muscular definition will show as you cut body fat. You are carrying a lot of fat starting right below your chest to your waist. As you lose this fat, not only will you increase defnition, but your chest will look more muscular as it loses the fat underneath it to highlight the "cut."

You should certainly target training with weights, etc., but you still need to drop weight. You have enough fat to lose that you probably won't gain the same amount of muscle, so I would not look to bulk. I'd look to train to gain/maintain muscle and cut the fat. Once you are lean and defined, then you can decide your next step and move into a bulking phase.

If you want to get to where John Stone is, a good way is to follow what he did: cut body fat, then start to bulk.

Jeremy

I tried to read through all the information on the site and run searches but I honestly am getting alot of conflicting and contradicting information so I decided it would be easier to ask specific questions so that I can get specific help based on my body type, metabolism, age, etc...

Ok, here is some starting information about myself. I am 6'4 (maybe 6'5) and weigh about 225.... im not cut or all that muscular and I have a gut. Here are some pictures taken today of what my "before" pictures will look like before I began lifting.
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Front.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Front2.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Side.JPG
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/python49/Side2.JPG

In the pictures you will see that I have this genetic thing with my back where it curves inward ALOT which in turn makes my stomach stick out more than it should.
What I would like to look like is what John Stone (creator of the site) looks like in his most recent pictures.. the november 2004 ones. I want to cut down on body fat in the stomach area but also get bigger in the muscles.

My question is, what would be the best route to take, considering i dont have too much fat in any area except the stomach area (less cardio because of this?) but i also dont have much muscle. Should I first try to lose weight and cut up, and once getting over that phase, bulk up by eating more calories and stuff? When I bulk up though, I don't want to bulk up on fat, I want the bulk to be bigger muscles... basically to simplify my question I would like to know the best route to take if I want to go from what I am now, to what John Stone is in his first pictures. Thanks.

Thanks for the response. I know that I have alot of uneeded fat and was not trying to put it on the curve on my back, but was just noting that it does make it stick out alot further.

Yep, you've got a pretty severe anterior tilt there, some rounding of the shoulders as well, and throacic curvature. Go to testoerone.net and search for a series of articles called "Neanderthal No More" or something like that. I posted links in another thread so someone may fill in the blanks here. If you follow that program then you will probably start to gain some mass while straightening out your curvature that most likely is a result of many years of poor posture and tight muscles.

Thanks for the response. I know that I have alot of uneeded fat and was not trying to put it on the curve on my back, but was just noting that it does make it stick out alot further.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=6221&page=2&pp=20

i believe this was it?

Well guys, I appreciate the information on the curvature in my back (although that link posted has no information on it), but I was looking moreso for advice on how to approach my lifting of weights. Something like....

"Start out with cardio MWF and lift T,W,THU, for the gut you could work abs during weight training and at night, make sure to include a diet with X amount of calories and use protein shakes". That was just rambling on my part from random type of information ive seen here, but I don't know if its accurate for my situation.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Yep, you've got a pretty severe anterior tilt there, some rounding of the shoulders as well, and throacic curvature. Go to testoerone.net and search for a series of articles called "Neanderthal No More" or something like that. I posted links in another thread so someone may fill in the blanks here. If you follow that program then you will probably start to gain some mass while straightening out your curvature that most likely is a result of many years of poor posture and tight muscles.

Is this even a real post? You do realize sarcasm is hard to spot on the internet right? Considering the site you suggested doesnt work and the article for me to search for seems to be unrelated to the curve... it seems to be that you're just trying to be funny. Im just looking for advice, thanks.

The linked tread is relevent and the tmag links seem good what is your problem ?

The website he gave does not exist (at least when I trid it)... and also the link someone posted didnt say anything in relation to a curved spine... i dont have a problem, what about you? Im just here like everyone else looking for help.

STOP!

You've got some pretty serious postural distortion, that if left unaddressed could lead to some real serious problems down the road. I've got a couple of questions...
Have you been checked out by a doctor, or have you been refered to a PT that has cleared you for strength training? I'm assuming that since you refered to this as a genetic issue, that you've been down this route already, but I'm curious as to what any medical professionals have had to say about future activity?

You're exibiting characteristics of both Upper Extremity Postural Distortion, as well weakness through the Lumbo-Pelvic-Hip Complex.

Low Back Arches:
Tight Muscles: Gastoc/Soleus, Bicep Femoris, Adductors, IT Band, Illiopsoas, and Piriformis.
Weak Muscles: Gluteus Medius/Maximus, Transversus Abdominis, and Multifidi.

The big key here would be to work on flexibility through the hip flexors and strengthening the glutes. That's the short version...

Abdomen Protrudes:
Tight Muscles: Illiopsoas
Weak Muscles: Lumbo-Pelvic-Hip Complex Stabilization Mechanism(CORE Musculature)

Once again, issues with tight hip flexors...and it's fairly obvious that there is some serious core strength/stability issues that NEED TO be addressed.

Rounding of the shoulders is a typical characteristic of a person who spends their day in front of a computer or at a desk all day(you didn't mention). It can't be seen in your pictures, but I suspect that when standing in an upright relaxed position, that your hands turn inward and face back. This is caused by tightness through the Lat's, and Pec's and is typically an easy issue to address through some Foam Rolling, and Static/Active stretching.

So...dietiing would be fine, though I would really suggest making sure that you're cleared for weight training by a professional before procedinig with that route. If you have been cleared...then I would suggest first addressing the postural distortions through some corrective flexibility training, before working with any weights. IE: Body weight movements would be ok, but would limit it to that until you have some better functional flexibility.
I'm limited to what I could suggest and post in here, since I cannot post the illustrations that I would like too. However...if you are cleared for all of the above, I'd be happy to email a corrective flexibility routine with illustrations that you might be able to incorporate into your training, as well as some exercises to help correct some of the postural distortion.

Late Edit: As mentioned by JMR, you've also got some Anterior Pelvic Tiltiing which could also be addressed through some corrective flexibility, and strengthening. (Lower Extremity Postural Distiortion)

I am happy to give out help.
The link below is to the specific post within the thread that has the tmag links in it.
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showpost.php?p=88662&postcount=35

Python, you're missing something somewhere. I don't see a joke anywhere. The link posted above has the following link within the discussion: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459379This article definitely addresses curvature of the spine. Perhaps it's not the exact answer you were wanting but it's not a joke by any means.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459379This

Great article...explains alot about postural distortion, though they don't go as far as to suggest how to correct it.

Sorry. I misspelled testosterone.net... Sorry about that. No joke. You seriously need to start correcting the problem like Kino said or you will be seriously messed up in the future. Lifting weights when your biomechanics are all out of whack will make a mess of you. Take it from me...

Thanks for the help Kino! I'm only an amateur. I'll let you take over!! :D

Links might be down right now. It was working a few min ago... odd.

back up now. :nod:

Here are the relevant URLs if you are interested:

Neanderthal No More, Part I (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=5ABF5491DD682AE00348445D EEA73C4B.titan?article=314nean2)
Neanderthal No More, Part II (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=5ABF5491DD682AE00348445D EEA73C4B.titan?article=315nean2) (specifically talks about the curved spine)
Neanderthal No More, Part III (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do;jsessionid=5ABF5491DD682AE00348445D EEA73C4B.titan?article=04-004-training)
Neanderthal No More, Part IV (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-016-training)

The article is extremely lengthy. Part I and II explains posture problems. Part III shows examples with real people. Part IV is the workout to help correct the posture problems. It is very comprehensive and fairly technical at times.

I, personally, have implemented some of the exercises into my current routine and my posture has improved greatly. (I had a slight forward rounding, and one shoulder was higher than the other)

I would say that doing this workout, in combination with cardio 3x per week, while eating at a slight calorie deficit will cause you to lose fat and correct posture while building some muscle. I would do the workout for 8 - 12 weeks, and then check your posture. If it is improved enough, move over to a different workout. Otherwise, go through this one again.

Ok wow, this is all brand new news to me.... I always thought the curve in my back was just something I inherited from my mother since she had it. Now though, I realize this is a problem which can be corrected. I can't deny that I am now worried because the links were a hefty bit of information which sounded really technical and didnt get any insight as to how to correct the problem. Now I feel even more overwhelmed than before because not only am I looking for information on how to achieve the muscle mass I desire, but I now need to do flexing exercises to fix my posture.

I was going to ask how I go about fixing the posture but just recently added was a post by kmfisher (thanks man), which I can use as starting grounds. When you say calorie deficit that just means cut back on the calories and fat correct? What about protein? Should I be getting alot of protein and is it okay to use whey protein shakes along with the work outs and cardio? Thanks in advance and sorry to everyone for coming across as though I thought it was a joke. The only reason was because none of the links appeared to be working for me.

Also, im just wondering. I was browsing through some of the work outs on that page and in a few of them they mentioned having an erect posture where your shoulders are back and back is straight. The thing with my posture is that the more erect I attempt to stand, with shoulders back... the more my back curves in. It would feel as though im doing workouts to further make the curve in the back become worse. Could someone explain this? Also they say that when sitting throughout the day make sure to have the back straight and posture upright... well when doing this, i can just feel the curve in my back and it feels like its putting pressure to further make the curve worse. If i wanted to correct the curve wouldnt I lean forward to counteract it? Just wondering.

Any chance someone can edit the pics on part 3 please. I can't see what they mean by rounded shoulders and the other things. I do know what they mean by the S shape but I can't see anything wrong with the people in the pics. Just need to know what i should be looking at.

One last question. Are there certain exercises in that guide which pertain to the problem I have? Arched back and rounded shoulders? While doing those exercises, would it be better to not do any other strength training exercises such as dumb bell curls? Military presses etc? I know that i've asked alot of questions but would really appreciate if alot of them were answered since i'm just learning here and its alot of information. Gotta run to class now though...

Calorie deficit is when you take in less calories than you burn in a day. There are calculators online that can estimate how many calories you need given your body weight, age, and activity level. Below are some simple figures I found that got me started (I left in my calculations, I was 6'5" 250lbs, and am now 226lbs), and may help you do the same.

--
macro nutrients: 40% protein, 40% carbohydrates, 20% unsat. fat.

you should drink body weight x .66 ounces for minimum daily water intake.

Cut: 10-13 cals per lb of bodyweight
Maintain: 13-15 cals per lb of bodyweight
Bulk: 15-18 cals per lb of bodyweight

250 lbs x 10 = 2500 calories per day.
250 lbs x 2 = < 500 grams of protein.
250 lbs x .66 = 165 ounces of water (1.2890625 US gallons).
--

Keep reading the forums, and you will come across many ways of figuring this out for yourself, you can refine your goals etc. along the way.

Also, make sure you track what you eat in a spreadsheet, John has an example on his main site that you can use. I found this very useful for me, I have kept my spreadsheet up to date for the last 3 months or so, and it helps me know what is working for me, or not, and develop a list of "acceptable" foods and recipes.

I hope this helps.

Kino can explain the intracisies of posture better than I can. But, leaning forward would not correct the problem from my understanding. It is a combination of muscle strengths and weaknesses. By strengthening the weak muscles, and actively trying to correct your posture, you will correct your posture.

As for the diet, a calorie deficit simply means that you eat less than you need to stay at one weight.

Weight = 225 lbs
Protein: 225 lbs x 1.0 = 225 g (900 cals)
Carbs: 225 lbs x 1.0 = 225 g (900 cals)
Fat: 225 lbs x 0.5 = 113 g (1017 cals)
Total Cals/Day = (225 * 4) + (225 * 4) + (113 * 9) = 2817 cals

Every 5 to 10 lbs you lose, plug your weight back into those numbers above and it will recalculate how much to eat for you.

Protein = lean beef, fish, chicken, turkey, lean pork, cottage cheese, beans, workout shake
Carbs = low-gi, high fiber foods: 100% whole wheat bread, grains, veggies, beans for example
Fat = monounsaturated and polyunsaturated: almonds, extra virgin olive oil, flax, nuts, fish, oil based dressing

Make sure to eat 5-7 times per day (that's around 450 - 500 calories per meal). Try to get within 100 or so calories of the 2817 total. You can track your diet at Fit Day (http://www.fitday.com). Try to get protein with every meal, and limit your carbs after 4:00 pm. Avoid sugars and processed food as much as possible.

Max heart rate (mhr) = 220 - age

With your cardio, work your way up to 30 - 45 minutes of steady-state cardio at 60-70% of your mhr. Or, work your way up to 20 - 25 minutes of HIIT (alternating 60% mhr and 90% mhr).

Focus hard on the workout. Follow it perfectly and pay attention to your form. I would suggest taking front and profile shots every couple weeks to see how your posture is progressing. This will also help with showing fat loss progress.

Don't get discouraged and stick with it. The results will come! Once that posture is corrected, you can move on to more demanding workouts that will really kick the fat loss and muscle gain into gear.

What is your final goal for your weight and body fat? John is somewhere around 11-12% in those recent pictures.

Sorry, forgot the most important thing :-).

1 gram of protein or carb = 4 calories.
1 gram of fat = 9 calories.

Thus:

2500 calories =
500 calories of fat (or 55.5 grams)
and 1000 calories each of carbs and protein (or 250 grams)

Now, I hope THAT helps.

Any chance someone can edit the pics on part 3 please. I can't see what they mean by rounded shoulders and the other things. I do know what they mean by the S shape but I can't see anything wrong with the people in the pics. Just need to know what i should be looking at.

You will have to contact the people at that site. No one here has control over such things. Why not begin searching the net for more information and clearer pictures of the problem?

When you say calorie deficit that just means cut back on the calories and fat correct? What about protein? Should I be getting alot of protein and is it okay to use whey protein shakes along with the work outs and cardio?

Are you sure you really read through everything and ran searches as you stated in your first post? Did you happen to search for "calorie deficit," "how much protein," or "whey shakes"? I'm sure you could probably find a lot of this information actually using the means available to you on this site. There are thousands of posts on those subjects alone.

Good luck losing the fat! :tucool:

Once again, Great Article! Most importantly that it is posted on the T Mag site where the majority of it's readers really need this type of information. It's giving a pretty blanket type approach though, so it won't address the specifics per person. Stretching protocols should follow a continuum just like any other training. In this case, SMR(Self Myofascia Release or Foam Rolling), Static, Active, Dynamic. The first 4 weeks of training would consists of SMR/Static Stretching of the shortened muscles both before and after training. So for the original poster, it would be:

Warm-up 5-10 minutes cardio
SMR: Illliopsoas
SMR: Erector Spinae
SMR: Latissimus Dorsi
Static: Pec Wall variations
Static: Latissimus Dorsi
Static: Standing Psoas

Core Strengthening
Core Stabilization

Workout

Cooldown The purpose of a Cooldown is to return the body to it's resting state.
Repeat above SMR/Static after training.

This is a good a place as any for me to throw up this Overview of Optimal Performance Training. (http://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/programming/optimum_performancetraining.htm)
I'm not asking anybody to buy into this methodology of training, only to consider it's reasoning, and how a more integrated routine might affect ones overall results.

When you view a profile of yourself, your shoulders should cover your upper back. If your shoulders are rounded forward then it will be obvious. It's very common especially among the bench pressing, curling only crowd that dominate most gyms. That's the problem. Everyone thinks it's normal now. :D

Originally Posted by reanimated838uk
Any chance someone can edit the pics on part 3 please. I can't see what they mean by rounded shoulders and the other things. I do know what they mean by the S shape but I can't see anything wrong with the people in the pics. Just need to know what i should be looking at.

SMR: Illliopsoas
SMR: Erector Spinae
SMR: Latissimus Dorsi
Static: Pec Wall variations
Static: Latissimus Dorsi
Static: Standing Psoas

Core Strengthening
Core Stabilization
Are these exercises/stretches that will help the arched back problem I have? if so i went to the previous link in "no more neanderthal" to look for these exercises in their descriptions. Are all the exercises in their workout play recommended for the arched back and rounded shoulders? If not, which ones specifically should i focus on. And while doing these work outs for 8-12weeks, can i not do any other work outs? Such as curls, bench press, squats, ect.. I wanted to start the work out plan as soon as possible. This seems to be a set back but im glad it was pointed out to me so that I can get it done.

My overall plan now for winter break is to follow the advice you guys have suggested for a diet and to cut first... and work on the exercises to straighten my back out. Then once thats taken care of i will change workout plans to bulk up. The hard part just seems to be finding the exact foods and combinations needed so i can meet my daily requirements for each day. I'll figure that out though.

Are these exercises/stretches that will help the arched back problem I have?

Yes...the SMR areas and the Static stretches I chose were based on what I saw in your posture. I'm not sure if this link will work through here, and if not I can email this to you. This is not pre-made page...This would be the corrective flexibilty portion of an IST (http://www.ptonthenet.com/capview.aspx?ProgramID=110022)(Integrated Stability Training) phase that will help to correct some of the problems you're experiencing. This is not a complete program, as progress would need to be monitored, and changes to your routine would be made accordingly. If you have had any feedback from a Doctor or PT in regards to your posture, it would only be in your best interest that I insist you print out the exercises above and present these for approval before proceeding.
I would be happy to provide you or anybody else a complete personalized program(SMR, Static, Active, Dynamic) in this format, to address any flexibility issues.
I would also be happy to provide a template of what a typical OPT session would look like if there is any interest as well.

Walt

I concur with Kino! Great stuff big guy!
:tucool:

Yes, thanks alot for your help kino... it explains in detail everythign I need to do. One question though. Out of the list of exercises you gave.. I didnt see these on the list.. so i dont know how to do them. The others had pictures to explain.
SMR: Illliopsoas
Static: Standing Psoas
Core Strengthening
Core Stabilization

I also just noticed that these posts contradict each other...

Cut: 10-13 cals per lb of bodyweight
Maintain: 13-15 cals per lb of bodyweight
Bulk: 15-18 cals per lb of bodyweight

Weight = 225 lbs
Protein: 225 lbs x 1.0 = 225 g (900 cals)
Carbs: 225 lbs x 1.0 = 225 g (900 cals)
Fat: 225 lbs x 0.5 = 113 g (1017 cals)
Total Cals/Day = (225 * 4) + (225 * 4) + (113 * 9) = 2817 cals

First one suggests 2550 cals for cutting (10 x 225), the second sgugests 900 cals. John Stone's diet did around that...

Yes, thanks alot for your help kino... it explains in detail everythign I need to do. One question though. Out of the list of exercises you gave.. I didnt see these on the list.. so i dont know how to do them. The others had pictures to explain.
SMR: Illliopsoas
Static: Standing Psoas
Core Strengthening
Core Stabilization

I took each of the exercises that I suggested, and incorporated them into the program I linked too. The SMR/Static are the first exercises in their respective order on that sheet, and all of the exercises are listed in the order that they should be performed. The Core Strength would be the Floor Bridge, and Prone Cobra, and the Stabilization would be Alternating Arm/Leg. I'm really only skimming over the surface here, as functional flexibility is something that needs to worked towards acheiving, just like strength training.

I took each of the exercises that I suggested, and incorporated them into the program I linked too. The SMR/Static are the first exercises in their respective order on that sheet, and all of the exercises are listed in the order that they should be performed. The Core Strength would be the Floor Bridge, and Prone Cobra, and the Stabilization would be Alternating Arm/Leg. I'm really only skimming over the surface here, as functional flexibility is something that needs to worked towards acheiving, just like strength training.

dang, that link went down :(

They're upgrading their site format today...I'll check the program I put together for you and see if it's still intact, when the site comes back up. Worst case senario, I have to do it up for you again, which is no big deal.
I'm going to be visiting out of state for the day, but will check in to see if the site comes back up from my mom's, and if so I'll make sure that the link above is pointing to your program.
I've had Integrated Flexibility drilled into my head for the past 8 months. It's a good feeling being able to apply some of what I've learned to help somebody else.

First one suggests 2550 cals for cutting (10 x 225), the second sgugests 900 cals. John Stone's diet did around that...

i didn't notice any contradiction in those posts, not too sure where you're confusion is from what i can see one gives you the calories and the seconf one gives you the macro breakdown to make up the total cals.

you don't wan't to go as low 900 calories (john admitted that he made a mistake when he went low on calories as he was not that knowledgeable on nutrition and i am sure that he said he would not go that low again)

2500 calories is about right,

although i suggest that you read the stickied thread at the top of fat loss forum or at least the first post as this will pretty much answer most of your questions on cutting nutrition


fat loss nutrition guide (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=1222)

~v

im thankful to have found this site, the great information ive been looking for. i cant wait to get home for winter break and start my training.