So we all know 1-2 pounds of weightloss a week is a good sign
but what about muscle?
I don't expect to gain 2 pounds of muscle every week.
So what's a good rate?

Depends on a number of things, but I think experience and current condition are both big factors. The more muscular you get I would think the harder it becomes.

I can gain a lot of WEIGHT pretty quickly. Lean mass is different though. For example, in the last 4 months I've put on around 15 pounds, but I know that's not all muscle. I'm not sure what a good number to shoot for is. I have read that experienced pro bodybuilders will be excited as hell about 10 pounds a year!

For the new and the regular lifters, I'd say 1 lb. per week is the safe max. Most people can gain at a 1/2 lb to 1 lb. This assumes a perfect bulking diet.

Those bodybuilders who have done it for years have trouble because they are close to their genetic potential. Most people are not.

I would shoot for 1 lb per week and be happy with a 1/2 lb of muscle per week.

With a gain of 10 lbs of lean mass a year, without adding fat, any person should be happy, regardless of how long you've been exercising.

True, any 10 lb gain should be considered good.

But, I feel larger gains should be expected depending on your diet, routine, current amount of muscle mass, and workout experience. This is especially true if you are new to training.

If you're new to training then I agree with you but it slows down dramatically after that. You can't gain 25 lbs per year for the rest of your life. The day will come when 2-3 lbs per year will be hard to manage.

True, any 10 lb gain should be considered good.

But, I feel larger gains should be expected depending on your diet, routine, current amount of muscle mass, and workout experience. This is especially true if you are new to training.

Ryan Reynolds put on 30lbs of muscle within a year for Blade 3. Who's knows what he did though. I heard that Brad Pitt used steroids for Troy, but I heard that on another forum so you can take it for what it's worth.

True, any 10 lb gain should be considered good.

But, I feel larger gains should be expected depending on your diet, routine, current amount of muscle mass, and workout experience. This is especially true if you are new to training.
I am not so sure. I do agree that someone who just started working out, or just have come back to serious lifting would add quite a bit faster, but as JMR says, it will slow greatly. If you expect a ½-1 pound change each week after having worked out for more than 3-4 months or so, and adjust your diet accordingly, pretty soon you'll be packing on a lot of fat. That's my belief.

I think it depends on a number of factors: your diet, how hard you work in the gym, your weight training program, what you do outside of the gym, how much sleep you get, experience, genetics... the list of variables goes on.

Look at Anthony Ellis. He packed on 32 pounds of muscle in 3 months, and he did it naturally: http://www.musclegaintips.com/

Personally I've added about 7-8 pounds of muscle in three months. I'm going to work even harder for the second half of my bulking program and plan to add another 8-10 pounds of muscle by the end of January. I'm very strict about my program, and that's a huge part of it. A lot of guys throw some weight around a couple times a week, eat like crap, drink all weekend, get much less rest than they need and then sit around and wonder why they aren't gaining much muscle.

Of course muscle growth slows down as you become more experienced and as you get closer to your genetic potential. I think Ron Coleman says he tries to put on 5 pounds of muscle per year these days. But for guys like me who have only been training for a year or two, the sky's the limit - but only if you get your act together in every way and work your ass off.

I think it depends on a number of factors: your diet, how hard you work in the gym, your weight training program, what you do outside of the gym, how much sleep you get, experience, genetics... the list of variables goes on.

Look at Anthony Ellis. He packed on 32 pounds of muscle in 3 months, and he did it naturally: http://www.musclegaintips.com/

Personally I've added about 7-8 pounds of muscle in three months. I'm going to work even harder for the second half of my bulking program and plan to add another 8-10 pounds of muscle by the end of January. I'm very strict about my program, and that's a huge part of it. A lot of guys throw some weight around a couple times a week, eat like crap, drink all weekend, get much less rest than they need and then sit around and wonder why they aren't gaining much muscle.

Of course muscle growth slows down as you become more experienced and as you get closer to your genetic potential. I think Ron Coleman says he tries to put on 5 pounds of muscle per year these days. But for guys like me who have only been training for a year or two, the sky's the limit - but only if you get your act together in every way and work your ass off.

Agreed, the variables are many, but I still don't really think more than 10 lbs a year is reasonable after your initial boost. A year or two is ages when it comes to training. John, as far as I know, your upper body is what has held you back, right? Looking at your stats, it's easy to see that most of your size gains has come in your upper body. Reason being that it was quite recently you could do your upper body workouts with the intensity needed in order to really start getting the gains. Thus, you are seeing "back to working out gains" in your upper body mainly. I'm actually really surprised to see you gain in such a rapid pace John, and I believe you should be happy (I don't doubt that you are). I'm almost more impressed with the way you are changing now than I was with your initial fat loss.

As far as Anthony Ellis goes, when I read his page a while back, he admitted that he had been working out and eating without a clue. Gaining 10 lbs a month for three months does seem extreme, but being the newbie that he was, it could very well be possible if you take your dedication to extreme levels. I am curious to what he has done with his body after that period of time.

I've seen desperately underweight young guys like Anthony Ellis put on up to 60 lbs in 3-4 months. Nothing unusual. He needed to put on 20 lbs to be even average.

I heard that Brad Pitt used steroids for Troy, but I heard that on another forum so you can take it for what it's worth.


If that's true... he should get his money back. ;)

QUOTE-John Stone: Personally I've added about 7-8 pounds of muscle in three months. I'm going to work even harder for the second half of my bulking program and plan to add another 8-10 pounds of muscle by the end of January.

I started bulking about 2 weeks after John and I have added about the same as he has, 7-8 pounds of solid muscle and plan on about the same for the last part as John. :tu: I've been lifting seriously for 5 months. I'm on a 3200+ calorie bulk diet right now. I workout 4 days a week.

My gain has come very fast, or at least that's what all my family tells me. Just like John said, it all depends on so many variables its hard to pinpoint an exact number.

Just some info for the thread:
Weight: 183
BF%: 12%
Age: 21

I'm not sure what the upper limit for muscle gain is, but here's a shot:

Assuming all variables (diet, routine, intensity, form, etc) are perfect, 30 - 35 lbs maximum over the first two years of working out. Then, the returns start diminishing.

How do you guys think that sounds?

Ellington Darden has written 6 books in which he took on a student for a study to see how much muscle mass they could add without drugs. All of these men had been weight training before, all had fair builds.

One man gained 18 lbs of muscle , 1 3/8" on arm, 3" on expanded chest and 1 5/8 " on each thigh, in two weeks. Documented in The New High Intensity Training book. One gained 29 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks, while another gained 22.5 lbs in 6 weeks also, docmented in Bigger muscles in 42 days. Some only gained 14 lbs in 6 weeks in other books.

I believe him, he shows pictures, gives measurements, details of workouts and diet. I think his results come from choosing men with good genes that have shown an ability of growth and following instructions. Darden has presented results in all of his books. I have seen at least 100 results in his books, he says there have been thousands, cutting and bulking. His cutting results are just as impressive. The pictures are taken in the same front, side, back, in a relaxed form. No fake lighting or retouching, all black and white. I don't question his results.

I think he lives in or near Gainesville, Florida. One of these days, I would like to set down and talk to that good ole boy from Texas and hear some of the stories he has to tell about bodybuilding, HIT, Arthur Jones and etc. John Stone and others down that way might see him before I do. Amazon books is an easy way to get some of his out of print books.

No disrespect but Arthur Jones and Ellington Darden are both full of crap. I've never seen a man make those kinds of gains without drugs unless they were coming off of a long lay off and had already rightfully earned that muscle the hard, long way (and in a few cases with drugs the first time). Same ol' trick that the HIT guys have been playing since Jones' great "experiment" with Casey Viator... Great pics in Darden's new book though. Take a look through it at the bookstore and then leave it on the shelf. :D Although Jones training methods are questionable, I still like some Nautilus equipment very much and use it frequently.

It depends on a lot of things including age and the type of program you follow. I'm older (50) and drug-free so gains come slower. I was not able to gain more than about 0.5-1 lb./month lean body mass until this fall when I gained 5.5 lbs. lean mass in only 8 weeks by switching to HST (hypertrophy specific training). My guess is that a younger guy could make really big gains with HST.

Ever consider that it was the change in your program and not HST itself?

It depends on a lot of things including age and the type of program you follow. I'm older (50) and drug-free so gains come slower. I was not able to gain more than about 0.5-1 lb./month lean body mass until this fall when I gained 5.5 lbs. lean mass in only 8 weeks by switching to HST (hypertrophy specific training). My guess is that a younger guy could make really big gains with HST.

Ever consider that it was the change in your program and not HST itself?

I doubt it since I tried several before, including high and low rep schemes, pyramids, etc.

Yeah but did you ever properly periodize your routines which HST does for you by virtue of the program?

I doubt it since I tried several before, including high and low rep schemes, pyramids, etc.
...and also, I see you've been here since the beginning of January. Have your diet changed at all during that time? Just asking...

I might add on my Darden information, he recommends and used creatine for "bulking" studies. He really doesn't recommend cardio. Diet is 2,800 to 3,000 calories per day on a 60% carb, 20% fat and 20% protein diet. He likes to use people with a good attitude that follows directions.

For JMR, While I am fully aware what Casey Viator did, I don't see signs of fraud in Darden 's work. The men he used in studies did not have a drug-like body before or after. He does seem to choose tall, dark haired men. None in bulking studies are in bad shape going in. Nor would any win a contest, even on local level.

Every one has an opinion.

...and also, I see you've been here since the beginning of January. Have your diet changed at all during that time? Just asking...

Yes, part of that time was spent not actively bulking, i.e more of a maintainence program but that was earlier this year and last fall. I'm sure there are other programs out there that will work but as long as I can get the kind of results I'm getting from HST I'm not going to waste my time switching. Also, since much of the lifting is submaximal HST is pretty easy on the joints which is important at my age. ;)

I thought that I'd add my 2 cents worth to this thread, since I'm very interested and have been reading along.

I'm new to this forum but would refer to myself as a newbie evolving into an intermediate bodybuilder. I just finished a fat loss program of 8 months, very successful, went from 217 to 179 lbs. August 22 I started a "bulking" program, changed to 4 days weights a week from three, concentrating on compound exercises like squats, deadlifts, bench for the first time. Also for the first time started eating for weight gain, eating about 3200 to 3500 calories a day. Quite the change after eating 2350 cals a day for 8 months (with about 2850 twice a week).

I shot up to 191 pounds in about 10 weeks. It was disconcerting watching the scale go up after watching it go down for months but by monitoring myself constantly with callipers I could tell that I didn't add much fat, staying right around the 4 mm reading the whole time, up from 3.5 mm when I started. (That's around 11.5% BF for a 56 year old.) I have spent the last couple of weeks leaning out and have lost about a pound.

Keeping with the subject of this thread, I figure I have gained about 9 to 10 lbs of LBM in the last 12 weeks. I account for this mostly to the combination of heavy compound lifting and lots of good food (always about 50/30/20 C/P/F). During fat loss it was really evident that the body was always lacking food and energy. Not only was it difficult to lift heavy and make gains there but all of my muscles were always deflated, sometimes to the point of wondering if anything good was happening other than fat loss. Right after the weekly cheat meal (usually Sunday roast beef, mashed taters, even gravy and even dessert) I would notice everything would blow up and all my muscles got a really nice pump for a day or so, before deflating again. During this muscle gaining phase I notice that I am pumped all the time, especially those muscles that were worked last. I assume that this is the water being drawn into the muscles by all the nice carbs, but what ever it is it has to account for a lot of the weight, but it feels great.

The increase in energy has also allowed me to gain in weights lifted. I have increased my squat by 90 lbs, for instance. This can be accounted for by the fact that I have improved my form 100% plus I'm doing 5 sets of 5 reps of squats one day a week and 4 sets of 15 hack squats on the second leg day of the week. I love this low rep/high rep with a slightly different exercise. The program I'm on has me doing this kind of rep/set mix for all major body parts, 5x5 deads followed by 4x12 back extensions next back day, 5x5 barbell bench followed by 4x12 dumbell bench, etc. as examples. I really like it.

To finish this long winded post, I have gained mostly in my middle back (it used to be flat now its curved), my thighs (lots of new muscle definition there) and my shoulders (which are starting to look a little too much for my liking), while gaining strength in other muscles without size increases. I concur with others that 1 pound a week gain is usual for fairly new lifters. A change in routine can keep that going for a while longer. (I am doing the Lee Hayward 12 Week Routine by the way, www.leehayward.com). Also in my humble opinion high carbs/fat are more important to muscle gain than adequate protein.

Enough. That's more like 6 cents worth.